U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-10-2010, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,203,701 times
Reputation: 4611

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catessa View Post
Hi Mach, thanks for your informative post. Sorry, I didn't see it before my previous post. You seem to know more about this issue than most of us (I'm for sure counting myself). If the Bracero regulation was for crops, why so many on this forum are saying that the illegals are not working the fields but taking jobs from Americans? I don't understand that argument because I think, IMHO, that most illegals work in jobs most Americans don't want, (e.g., washing dishes, chamber maids at hotels, cafeterias, janitorial work, house cleaning, etc). No American wants these jobs because they are considered menial. How did the migrants go from working the fields to these occupations? I still advocate for a policy where these people can be transferred from Mexico to the US back and forth. I think the problem is that many of these individuals don't have papers and the government doesn't know they exist. I've read horrible stories about immigrants being abused because they have no rights and live under fear of being denounced. On the other hand, I've also heard about illegal immigrants who steal, rape, and engage in all sorts of crime beyond being illegal in the country. I think the ones who commit crime should be apprehended and deported. The ones who just want to work and behave well should go through a process and allowed to work for certain periods of time during the year then they should go back to their home countries. I think that might work better.
You're way behind on this issue. Your the one who needs to back-up and learn about what's happened in the past and what and who brought illegal immigration to what it is today.
Most of us have experienced illegal immigration.

There are already programs for what "you think might work". The need for illegals picking crops is fading out. Machines are taking their place, so they're bieng hired by other business employers for cheaper labor, while they illiminate American workers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-11-2010, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catessa View Post
Hi Mach, thanks for your informative post. Sorry, I didn't see it before my previous post. You seem to know more about this issue than most of us (I'm for sure counting myself). If the Bracero regulation was for crops, why so many on this forum are saying that the illegals are not working the fields but taking jobs from Americans? I don't understand that argument because I think, IMHO, that most illegals work in jobs most Americans don't want, (e.g., washing dishes, chamber maids at hotels, cafeterias, janitorial work, house cleaning, etc). No American wants these jobs because they are considered menial. How did the migrants go from working the fields to these occupations? I still advocate for a policy where these people can be transferred from Mexico to the US back and forth. I think the problem is that many of these individuals don't have papers and the government doesn't know they exist. I've read horrible stories about immigrants being abused because they have no rights and live under fear of being denounced. On the other hand, I've also heard about illegal immigrants who steal, rape, and engage in all sorts of crime beyond being illegal in the country. I think the ones who commit crime should be apprehended and deported. The ones who just want to work and behave well should go through a process and allowed to work for certain periods of time during the year then they should go back to their home countries. I think that might work better.
Answering what is in bold:
What % of illegals work in fields? Latest estimate is quite low. As low as 3%. So whats 3% of 12 million? 360,000.
Washing dishes used to be a H.S kids part time job.
Maids,cafeterias and janitors? Well Americans used to do these jobs and plenty still would. The catch? Have to pay them a fair wage. Illegals often don't pay taxes. 7.5% for ss, workmans comp insurance, state local and fed tax adds up. Add to this many illegals rent an apartment together. 3 or 4 families in a 3 bedroom unit.
Abuse. Yes it does happen. Many criminals are abused by fellow criminals. This happens in jail quite often or so I have read. One can't really complain about abuse when one has made a decision to disregard laws themselves.
The ones who just want to work and behave should go through the process.
Lets talk about the process all legal immigrants go through.
1. They apply for a VISA in the country of origin.
2. They pay their fees up front.
3. Pass a background check.
4. pass a biometrics check.
5. Wait to receive said VISA before entering our country.
Yes I agree all illegals should be forced to go through the process.
Illegals are not victims. They made a choice. The choice to disregard our laws. It really is that simple.
Now you can blame the employer, you can blame the gov. I do too,but one must never forget that the illegal made the choice to come here illegally. That means they own at least 1/3 of the blame. I really feel it is more like 75% of the blame.
Do you take money from a bank and apply for a loan later? The bank may have poor security, lazy workers, and a dishonest manager. But whose fault is it when a theif robs the bank? Yes this is a fair analogy. How much in taxes does a single illegal not pay? How much in social services does an illegal get for free? How much does it cost to straighten out someones credit after ID theft?
No illegals are not innocent nor are they the victim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Don't be a cry baby!
1,310 posts, read 1,145,245 times
Reputation: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
. But whose fault is it really?
I'm sure its been said already but how about the folks who cross over illegally?
Answer- "The Illegal aliens!"

Shuffling responsibility will never produce and answer only more blame. Its the individuals fault for breaking the law not his/her mom, dad, brother, sister, nieghbor, town, government or country. But it seems the consequences for breaking this law is...nothing, so why blame anyone for a non-enforced law? ENFORCE THE FREAKING LAWS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!
(LEAD FOLLOW OR GET THE **** OUT OF THE WAY!)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,203,701 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCincorrect View Post
I'm sure its been said already but how about the folks who cross over illegally?
Answer- "The Illegal aliens!"

Shuffling responsibility will never produce and answer only more blame. Its the individuals fault for breaking the law not his/her mom, dad, brother, sister, nieghbor, town, government or country. But it seems the consequences for breaking this law is...nothing, so why blame anyone for a non-enforced law? ENFORCE THE FREAKING LAWS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!
(LEAD FOLLOW OR GET THE **** OUT OF THE WAY!)
Cut-N-Dry.

The blame goes to: All contributers and recipients. Any and everyone who goes against the written law. The quilt is equal,(no more, no less) to everyone working against the immigration law,no matter who they are or where they're from. If they ignore the law or feel they are above it, they're guilty and are to blame. no exceptions!
In the end, all who are at blame will automatically be penalized. one way or another. (Just think about it)

Last edited by mkfarnam; 08-11-2010 at 11:03 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 09:58 AM
 
43 posts, read 19,899 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
You're way behind on this issue. Your the one who needs to back-up and learn about what's happened in the past and what and who brought illegal immigration to what it is today.
Most of us have experienced illegal immigration.

There are already programs for what "you think might work". The need for illegals picking crops is fading out. Machines are taking their place, so they're bieng hired by other business employers for cheaper labor, while they illiminate American workers.

Mkfarm, please learn to spell. illiminate American workers? I think you meant to say eliminate. You're very contentious and belligerent. When did I say that you should back off? You are no one to tell any forum participants to back off. At least I am substantiating my views with historic facts, I'm using good grammar and spelling, and I am also admitting I am NOT EXPERT on the subject. Also, did you read the part I said I am NOT advocating for illegal immigration? All I said was that I am trying to find solutions, as opposed to just complaining. Please learn to read and spell before going on posting poorly written tirades.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:14 AM
 
43 posts, read 19,899 times
Reputation: 15
tinman01
Quote:
No illegals are not innocent
Who said they are?? I think so many people in this forum are enraged over the issue and that rage does not allow them to READ what others are expressing. When did I say it's OK for people to break the law and come illegally? Hmmm, can't find that anywhere on my postings.

I think the process you propose would be comprehensive enough to weed out the bad elements from coming to the country and shouldn't be too hard to implement. I still disagree that HS students want to work cleaning. At least not the ones I know, who want to spend time shopping at the mall, traveling to Europe, or practicing other hobby. But if you still think the illegals are to be blamed, then you should blame the employers who HIRE them. The illegals don't hire themselves or pay themselves under the table. A good ol' American is happily doing that. Why not go after him/her?

In regards to abuse, which does happen, I disagree that anyone guilty of committing a crime should be abused. Immigrants who get abused BECOME victims and so does a petty burglar who gets raped in jail by a pedophile. Since when two wrongs make one right? To say that illegals should not be in the country is a valid statement. To say they should be denigrated and abused because they came to a country seeking a better life where AMERICAN EMPLOYERS hire them is just ludicrous. A good system will be one that will not permit illegal entry, but also one that guards human rights. Gotta have both.

Last edited by Catessa; 08-11-2010 at 10:23 AM.. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:36 AM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,585 posts, read 20,464,174 times
Reputation: 9077
Ronald Reagan started this mess. (Sorry Republicans). They were 5% of the population when he offered amnesty in the 1980s.

Politicians have refused to clean up the mess because pro business Republicans like cheap labor and Democrats see a potential voter base.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,203,701 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catessa View Post
Mkfarm, please learn to spell. illiminate American workers? I think you meant to say eliminate. You're very contentious and belligerent. When did I say that you should back off? You are no one to tell any forum participants to back off. At least I am substantiating my views with historic facts, I'm using good grammar and spelling, and I am also admitting I am NOT EXPERT on the subject. Also, did you read the part I said I am NOT advocating for illegal immigration? All I said was that I am trying to find solutions, as opposed to just complaining. Please learn to read and spell before going on posting poorly written tirades.
I DID read where you said "I am NOT advocating for illegal immigration". and if my post sounded like I was "coming down" on you, that was not my intentions.
To be honest with you:
IMO, some of your statements sound as if your not quite sure which side you want to be on yet.
No one on this forum is an EXPERT on illegal immigration, but some are close to it.
What caught my attention was when you said, (not quoted) "that some of the posters need to study the History of immigration."
Now, I feel that that's an unfair statment, considering that it's coming from someone that's NO EXPERT themself.
I understand, that your trying understand and learn more about the illegal immigration issue. I'm willing to help as are most of the other poster.

BTW, you had a misspelling too, "Mkfarm," Didn't you mean "mkfarnam"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 01:52 PM
 
43 posts, read 19,899 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
BTW, you had a misspelling too, "Mkfarm," Didn't you mean "mkfarnam"?
OK, Mkfarnam, fair enough. Your message was much more likable than the first one. Thanks for clarifying things Regarding my misspelling of your user name, "mkfarnam" is not an English word recognized by a dictionary. But no hard feelings here.

I'm not flip flopping between sides, I just don't have extreme views like some of the posters here. I've learned that whenever you get too extreme, your judgment gets clouded. My comment about learning more on the history of immigration was innocent (no guile intended) and was meant more as a way to make posters look back as to when the root cause started, since I don't know that myself.

We all know that illegals are a gigantic problem now and have been for some time. I don't think anyone here defends the rights of people who have no regard for the rule of law. I'm sorry if I keep harking back to the point, but just when (what year or years) did immigration become out of control? How do you go from peaceful boarding crossing (done by each side) to an out of proportion influx of Mexican immigrants (some of them violent enough to kill)? Some of you touched on the Bracero law, now I'm hearing that machines have replaced laborers in the field. Again, what's the answer to the initial question? If we could figure out what caused the massive immigration to this country, then we could probably figure out how to prevent it from continuing to happening. This is the only reason why I keep insisting that's important to look at the historic facts. I admit I am not an expert and, trust me, I'm not putting anyone down. But I simply have not read answers from a historic perspective. We are all frustrated by this problem, but to just repeat over and over how bad the problem is, won't change things. My respects to all of you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2010, 02:13 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catessa View Post
OK, Mkfarnam, fair enough. Your message was much more likable than the first one. Thanks for clarifying things Regarding my misspelling of your user name, "mkfarnam" is not an English word recognized by a dictionary. But no hard feelings here.

I'm not flip flopping between sides, I just don't have extreme views like some of the posters here. I've learned that whenever you get too extreme, your judgment gets clouded. My comment about learning more on the history of immigration was innocent (no guile intended) and was meant more as a way to make posters look back as to when the root cause started, since I don't know that myself.

We all know that illegals are a gigantic problem now and have been for some time. I don't think anyone here defends the rights of people who have no regard for the rule of law. I'm sorry if I keep harking back to the point, but just when (what year or years) did immigration become out of control? How do you go from peaceful boarding crossing (done by each side) to an out of proportion influx of Mexican immigrants (some of them violent enough to kill)? Some of you touched on the Bracero law, now I'm hearing that machines have replaced laborers in the field. Again, what's the answer to the initial question? If we could figure out what caused the massive immigration to this country, then we could probably figure out how to prevent it from continuing to happening. This is the only reason why I keep insisting that's important to look at the historic facts. I admit I am not an expert and, trust me, I'm not putting anyone down. But I simply have not read answers from a historic perspective. We are all frustrated by this problem, but to just repeat over and over how bad the problem is, won't change things. My respects to all of you.
Historically, Mexico has been ruled by the Spanish elite who don't give a rat's behind about their citizens and creating an economy so their people will remain there. Is that historical enough for you? There lays your "root cause" and it isn't our problem nor is it up to us to fix it by allowing their citizens to jump our borders illegally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top