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Old 08-02-2010, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,970,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Sadly, that doesn't surprise me. The form isn't really that complex but for whatever reason people seem to be undereducated on it and it leads to all kinds of mistakes. That's probably why the government's guide on the I-9 form is over 60 pages long....we're talking about a guide on how to correctly fill out a 1 page form.

See for yourself: http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-274.pdf

Yup - I've seen/read it as a payroll/HR person many times.....
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,277,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We’re going in circles here. For starters, the government needs to focus on the primary employers of illegal aliens: construction, hospitality, restaurants, and landscaping. They need to undertake an exhaustive verification process on all employees, both current and new hires, to include fingerprinting. Then, they need to arrest, prosecute, fine, and imprison all owners of violating companies. No more slaps on the wrist. The remaining employers will get the message. Repeat offenders should be given a mandatory 10 year prison sentence without the possibility of parole.

Our government must also send a resounding message that illegal immigration will no longer be tolerated. Illegals should be given 60 days to handle their affairs and leave the country. Anyone caught after the 60-day grace period will forfeit assets, be arrested, deported, and penalized with permanent banishment.

We must also send enough troops to the border to effectively secure the perimeter. They should receive the same directives as U.S. troops currently securing the borders of foreign nations.

This may seem harsh, but our government has played games long enough. It’s time to get serious.
Like I've tried to explain to you many times, you can't hold employers accountable for hiring illegal immigrants if they aren't given effective tools to properly screen them when they're hired. Even employers who are making a good faith effort to follow all current processes made available to them and/or those required by the federal government are hiring alot of people who aren't authorized to work in the US because they are able to weave through the system via ID fraud. You'd essentially be punishing all employers for something that isn't at all their fault.
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,277,756 times
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No feedback on this?
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
No feedback on this?
Hold your horses; I didn't notice your response. We are in agreement that despite their best efforts to comply with the law, many employers unknowingly hire illegal aliens. However, a federal audit will easily absolve them of guilt. On the other hand, many employers knowingly hire and willfully seek illegal workers, and their blatant violations will be evident.

Rather than squandering scarce resources on nonsensical lawsuits, we would be much better served if the government focused on improving E-Verify and enforcing our current laws. Even the threat of enforcement would be a deterrent for most companies that knowingly employ illegals. It would also force many illegals to leave, as evidenced by their flight from Arizona.

We cannot allow illegal immigration to continue unabated simply for the sake of law-abiding employers. Again, the innocent will be vindicated.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,277,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
On the other hand, many employers knowingly hire and willfully seek illegal workers, and their blatant violations will be evident.
This is where I would disagree. For large corporations it is definitely not in their best interest to do this...the fines they would expose themselves to as well as the possible negative implications from a reputation standpoint wouldn't be worth the potential labor benefits. I've worked for several different Companies and all were very careful to ensure that federal, state and local laws were enforced in regards to hiring practices. This meant that hiring was done to make sure the applicants were found to be authorized to legally work in the US, but also that it was done in a non-discriminatory manner. I would be very surprised if any large Companies in the US were intentionally seeking and hiring illegal workers in the current day.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
This is where I would disagree. For large corporations it is definitely not in their best interest to do this...the fines they would expose themselves to as well as the possible negative implications from a reputation standpoint wouldn't be worth the potential labor benefits. I've worked for several different Companies and all were very careful to ensure that federal, state and local laws were enforced in regards to hiring practices. This meant that hiring was done to make sure the applicants were found to be authorized to legally work in the US, but also that it was done in a non-discriminatory manner. I would be very surprised if any large Companies in the US were intentionally seeking and hiring illegal workers in the current day.
Under ordinary circumstances they probably wouldn’t. However, given that our laws are not being enforced, and haven’t for years, I believe many are willing to take the risk. They realize if caught, they’ll receive a nominal fine, and no criminal charges or sentencing. Thus, it simply becomes another cost of doing business.

Corruption is rampant. Consider such large corporations as Enron, Arthur Andersen, AIG, etc. Motivated by greed, they willfully violated the law. The lucrative cheap labor industry is equally corrupt, much more pervasive, and the impetus again is greed.

Do you recall the video of the company that hired a law firm to assist them in “legally” NOT hiring U.S. citizens in favor of cost-effective H-1B workers? This appalling behavior is sadly quite prevalent. It may be legal, but it is certainly unethical.

If our government ever gets serious and actually enforces our laws, illegal employers will merely relish their years of ill-gotten profits, and begin to clean house. Until then, they will continue to employ illegal aliens, simply because they can.


For those who haven’t seen the video. . .


YouTube - PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards fo
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,277,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Under ordinary circumstances they probably wouldn’t. However, given that our laws are not being enforced, and haven’t for years, I believe many are willing to take the risk.
Oh...trust me. They are being enforced more than you probably think. I'm not trying to say that the government is putting a sufficient amount of resouces there, but I know for a fact they aren't turning a blind eye to major allegations.

Quote:
Corruption is rampant. Consider such large corporations as Enron, Arthur Andersen, AIG, etc. Motivated by greed, they willfully violated the law. The lucrative cheap labor industry is equally corrupt, much more pervasive, and the impetus again is greed.
This is all the more reason that Companies are taking more measures to prevent disasters like what happened to those Companies....seems to me that those Companies didn't fare too well in the end.

Quote:
Do you recall the video of the company that hired a law firm to assist them in “legally” NOT hiring U.S. citizens in favor of cost-effective H-1B workers? This appalling behavior is sadly quite prevalent. It may be legal, but it is certainly unethical.
No, but what I'm trying to say is for the few companies who are found to be negligent, there are thousands that play by the rules. I wouldn't take those examples and make generalizations about everyone else.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Oh...trust me. They are being enforced more than you probably think. I'm not trying to say that the government is putting a sufficient amount of resouces there, but I know for a fact they aren't turning a blind eye to major allegations.
If our laws were stringently enforced, we would have few illegal workers. Yes, the government is now conducting audits on a select group of companies, but there is no concerted effort to enforce our laws. After all, big business owns our government, so they pull the strings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
This is all the more reason that Companies are taking more measures to prevent disasters like what happened to those Companies....seems to me that those Companies didn't fare too well in the end.
I mentioned those companies simply to illustrate the willingness of even major corporations to engage in illegal practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
No, but what I'm trying to say is for the few companies who are found to be negligent, there are thousands that play by the rules. I wouldn't take those examples and make generalizations about everyone else.
I’m not generalizing. I realize many companies strive toward excellence in all facets of their business operations, including regulatory compliance. However, it is a fact that millions of illegal aliens are employed in this country, and some by major corporations as well as government agencies. I can’t change the facts.

Clearly, we have divergent perceptions regarding corporate integrity. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. However, thank you for the civil discourse.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,277,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If our laws were stringently enforced, we would have few illegal workers.
You might want to hold off on making a statement like this. I think you're underestimating the severity of the ID theft and fraud problem. Even if a company uses E-verify with all new hires there will be tons of cases where the fraudulent ID information passes through. I could give you specific examples where E-verify cannot recognize the fraud taking place...it really isn't that hard.

That's why I'm so adamant about improving the hiring tools made available to employers and require their use nationwide.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:03 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 33,906,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I agree that the employers share a lot of this blame. However, you giving a pass to illegal aliens for their part in this is not being fair. I would never jump another country's borders to give myself and my family a better life knowing full well it is against the law and that it is creating a problems for the families in the country I migrated to illegally. It is a selfish and unethical motive.
“If you could move north to Canada and earn in one day what it would take you two weeks to earn in your country if you could even find a job, would you go to Canada?"

You're aware of how much money immigrants legal and illegal send home to their families from their jobs in the US.

It's kind of "selfish and unethical" not to honestly examine the other guy's motive, isnt it? I realize some people have only bad intent when they come here, but the vast, vast majority are just trying to better their lives and their families' lives, in the American tradition.

(Now attack away )
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