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Old 08-23-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,864,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
I was called pro-illegal more than once but by this definition, I am clearly not. More accurately, I am a taxpaying, "middle" class individual who wants to see everyone contribute to this society and reap whatever benefits, if any, that come with being a legal, taxpaying citizen.
Do you support amnesty for those currently in this country illegally?
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:37 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,339,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Do you support amnesty for those currently in this country illegally?
Not sure about that. Sorry if I sound like a lawyer or politician but...It would perhaps be a plausible solution if they were all officially put into the system, taken off any welfare and started paying taxes like the rest of us.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
Not sure about that. Sorry if I sound like a lawyer or politician but...It would perhaps be a plausible solution if they were all officially put into the system, taken off any welfare and started paying taxes like the rest of us.
Have you considered our high unemployment, and the fact that most will not pay taxes due to their low wages and numerous exemptions for dependents? Rather than lowering our welfare rolls, they would be substantially increased.
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:48 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
Not sure about that. Sorry if I sound like a lawyer or politician but...It would perhaps be a plausible solution if they were all officially put into the system, taken off any welfare and started paying taxes like the rest of us.
Or, they could be deported either voluntarily or involuntarily and Americans could take the jobs they are currently holding and in turn be paying in those same taxes. It would put less stress on our health, education and welfare systems with their exit from our country. Less people, less demands on our natural resources and all of the above.

I don't think you have thought this through. What about those illegals who have stolen I.D.'s and used fake documents to work and for other reasons? Are we to just excuse those felonies? Would an American be excused for the same crimes? What message would we be sending to other Mexicans and other potential immigration laws breakers if we grant the ones here amnesty?
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Or, they could be deported either voluntarily or involuntarily and Americans could take the jobs they are currently holding and in turn be paying in those same taxes. It would put less stress on our health, education and welfare systems with their exit from our country. Less people, less demands on our natural resources and all of the above.

I don't think you have thought this through. What about those illegals who have stolen I.D.'s and used fake documents to work and for other reasons? Are we to just excuse those felonies? Would an American be excused for the same crimes? What message would we be sending to other Mexicans and other potential immigration laws breakers if we grant the ones here amnesty?
Of course I have not thought this completely through. I doubt anyone on this thread has. This is not to say that there are varying levels of thought and knowledge on the subject but who among us is an expert on this?

I have however thought about it and discussed it in greater depth than this forum at various times. In all those discussions, I have yet to see any real cohesive agreement beyond the gross generalities we are all hear.

If you look at my comment, you will see it is brief and very general. In the same vein, I'd be more supportive of certain welfare programs if we could truly tell who is worthy of such charity. But we can't and with that comes the inevitable abuse. And I'm sure there are even more considerations in addition to the criminal element you mention. In a perfect world, only those deserving would get what they needed. Alas, this world is far from that.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:35 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,339,036 times
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Have you considered our high unemployment, and the fact that most will not pay taxes due to their low wages and numerous exemptions for dependents? Rather than lowering our welfare rolls, they would be substantially increased.
OK. So let's say we somehow identify all illegals, round them up and deport them. We all know times are hard so in the agriculture business, let's say unemployed but legal citizens start filling the migrant worker positions. Let's say they work for the same minimal amount(s). Let's say that the farms employ them legally. What are the ramifications?

For one, the cost of enforcement and deportation would rise. And for another, those individuals now working are no longer collecting unemployment. That would ease the unemployment obligation to a degree. But wouldn't it also lower the tax base? Unemployment checks, 100% taxable if in excess of standard minimums, might actually result in higher income tax while at the same time, most of these people would, as you say, "not pay any taxes" (within the earned income limits?)and would now be eligible for other forms of aid (in education, food stamps etc.). How long does this last? How long before unions form and higher wages are demanded? What other economic ramifications are there?

And CN, before you ask...I just threw this out as a conversation aid.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,864,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
OK. So let's say we somehow identify all illegals, round them up and deport them. We all know times are hard so in the agriculture business, let's say unemployed but legal citizens start filling the migrant worker positions. Let's say they work for the same minimal amount(s). Let's say that the farms employ them legally. What are the ramifications?

For one, the cost of enforcement and deportation would rise. And for another, those individuals now working are no longer collecting unemployment. That would ease the unemployment obligation to a degree. But wouldn't it also lower the tax base? Unemployment checks, 100% taxable if in excess of standard minimums, might actually result in higher income tax while at the same time, most of these people would, as you say, "not pay any taxes" (within the earned income limits?)and would now be eligible for other forms of aid (in education, food stamps etc.). How long does this last? How long before unions form and higher wages are demanded? What other economic ramifications are there?

And CN, before you ask...I just threw this out as a conversation aid.
We don’t need to “round up” or deport illegal aliens. If we enforce ALL of our laws, their only recourse will be to leave. Heck, they left Arizona prior to the enforcement of the law. If they can’t work or receive government handouts, do you actually believe they will remain here?

Are you suggesting we will benefit more from taxable unemployment, than from employed citizens?

Companies employ illegal aliens because they can profit from violating DOL and IRS laws. If the agriculture industry replaced illegals, they could not continue to pay below minimum wage, and they would pay the required taxes. Furthermore, 75% of ag workers are already U.S. citizens or legal residents.

Do you support cheap labor?

Last edited by Benicar; 08-23-2010 at 04:36 PM.. Reason: To add a missing word.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:38 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
OK. So let's say we somehow identify all illegals, round them up and deport them. We all know times are hard so in the agriculture business, let's say unemployed but legal citizens start filling the migrant worker positions. Let's say they work for the same minimal amount(s). Let's say that the farms employ them legally. What are the ramifications?

For one, the cost of enforcement and deportation would rise. And for another, those individuals now working are no longer collecting unemployment. That would ease the unemployment obligation to a degree. But wouldn't it also lower the tax base? Unemployment checks, 100% taxable if in excess of standard minimums, might actually result in higher income tax while at the same time, most of these people would, as you say, "not pay any taxes" (within the earned income limits?)and would now be eligible for other forms of aid (in education, food stamps etc.). How long does this last? How long before unions form and higher wages are demanded? What other economic ramifications are there?

And CN, before you ask...I just threw this out as a conversation aid.
I thought you had been around this forum long enough to realize that most of us are more for voluntary deportations via e-verify then mass deportations. There is little to no costs involved in them leaving volutarily.

Farms jobs are not what were are talking about. For one thing only a very small percentage of illegals are doing farm work and for them there are unlimited visas for legal immigrant workers to fill those jobs. It is those blue collar jobs such as construction, hospitality and other such jobs that Americans have always been willing to do but have been replaced by illegal workers instead.

We need to get back to how our economy functioned without illegal workers. We have always had to pay taxes as Americans from employment so how is today any different? As for welfare handouts, I am all for ending most of it. It seems from your post that you are trying to justify illegal immigration by using the economy as your argument. What did we do before we had millions of illegal in our country? I don't recall our country collapsing without them. Now we have overcrowded schools, jails and hospitals. Removing 20-30 million illegal aliens will alleviate that.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:07 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,339,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We don’t need to “round up” or deport illegal aliens. If we enforce ALL of our laws, their only recourse will be to leave. Heck, they left Arizona prior to the enforcement of the law. If they can’t work or receive government handouts, do you actually believe they will remain here?

Are you suggesting we will benefit more from taxable unemployment, than from employed citizens?

Companies employ illegal aliens because they can profit from violating DOL and IRS laws. If the agriculture industry replaced illegals, they could not continue to pay below minimum wage, and they would pay the required taxes. Furthermore, 75% of ag workers are already U.S. citizens or legal residents.

Do you support cheap labor?
I do not support illegal and cheap labor. I do not employ any housekeepers or gardeners though I can't say for sure that contractors I've used do or don't use them. My suspicion is that they do so I suppose I am part of the picture indirectly. Another economic shift occurs when labor costs rise substantially since the burden of paying for the increase goes ultimately to the consumer as in the company example. Not only in agriculture but in construction, landscaping, and the food industry to name a few.

Regarding taxable unemployment vs employment...I am saying that some of the tax breaks (earned income) and other government obligations / burdens shift in form in this scenario.

At very least, the cost to effectively enforce our immigration laws would be substantial.

A question...if the illegals left AZ prior to the enforcement of the laws, why all the hub bub?

Lastly, I work for Medi-Cal on the financial audit side. Most of the billing records I see are for what appear to be legal citizens. They are a huge burden financially on the state of CA none-the-less.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:09 PM
 
2,791 posts, read 3,567,258 times
Reputation: 1546
One thing I have personally noticed here in Kansas is that the wages for blue collar workers have DROPPED significantly in direct relation to the rise of illegals. A construction job that used to pay $15 ten years ago, they can now hire illegals at less than HALF that.
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