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Old 09-15-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Califreeman View Post
ICE came with figures of 100 billion...in 2007
ICE: Tab to remove illegal residents would approach $100 billion - CNN

The Center for American Progress reports the figure to be nearly $280 billion.

You don't understand that there are legal processes that must be dealt with. Thus, a large amount of paper work and personnel would be needed.

You do realize you could do a Google search for citations I provide. Again, some things are not on the internet.
Do you have data on the short-term or long-term costs of amnesty? How much will it cost taxpayers to conduct background checks on 20+ million, document their presence, fingerprint, issue visas, and monitor for compliance? Not to mention, the additional costs for Medicaid, welfare, prisons and education. Plus, we have 18 million unemployed citizens. Should we allow illegals to have jobs while our own citizens are lacking? And, please don’t say they are only doing the jobs Americans don’t want, because that lie has been thoroughly debunked.

Furthermore, we didn’t pay for them to enter this country, so why do we need to pay for them to leave? For the umpteenth time, if there are no jobs, and they are denied ALL benefits, they will return home. I don’t know why you pro-illegals continue to act as though amnesty and deportation are our ONLY options. They are here for what they can get. Eliminate the incentives, and there is absolutely no reason for them to stay. They have no legal basis for remaining in this country. Therefore, they have two options: they can leave voluntarily, or they will be forcibly removed.

In any case, I would prefer to pay $200 billion and be rid of these parasites, than to pay untold billions annually by allowing them to stay. It's a no-brainer.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:15 AM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvmycountry View Post
This is my last post to you as you just aren't getting the big picture. I believe this article below sums up my argument. When I stated every dollar an illegal gets who never paid into the system, is one less dollar for Americans who paid into the system, I said that as fact not emotions. GET IT?

Thousands of Fresno County seniors qualify as poor - Local - fresnobee.com
I read your post. Yeah it's a great emotional appeal. Poor senior citizens have nothing to do with illegal immigration. Did illegal immigrants cause poverty amongst this population? No. That's ridiculous. The fact that you posted this article, stated "This is my last post to you" and "GET IT?" as well as your screen name being "Iluvmycountry" indicates a level of emotionality that doesn't want to hear any opposing views.

I agreed that there is a problem. I even stated that the biggest problem is tax collection. So what's interesting is the lack of acknowledgement for that.

That's another reason why I stated that emotionality in your collective arguments.

When you post things that have nothing to do illegal immigration...and try to get sympathy...that's not letting rationality dictate. That's letting emotionality steer the conversation.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:18 AM
 
Location: deep in the south
233 posts, read 389,830 times
Reputation: 117
In any case, I would prefer to pay $200 billion and be rid of these parasites, than to pay untold billions annually by allowing them to stay. It's a no-brainer.[/quote]

I'll go one further and say that I would hasten a guess that most citizens would contribute to a general fund voluntarily to send them all home if they couldn't pay on their own with what they have squirrled away while working off the books and collecting those benefits they love!
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:27 AM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Do you have data on the short-term or long-term costs of amnesty? How much will it cost taxpayers to conduct background checks on 20+ million, document their presence, fingerprint, issue visas, and monitor for compliance? Not to mention, the additional costs for Medicaid, welfare, prisons and education. Plus, we have 18 million unemployed citizens. Should we allow illegals to have jobs while our own citizens are lacking? And, please donít say they are only doing the jobs Americans donít want, because that lie has been thoroughly debunked.

Furthermore, we didnít pay for them to enter this country, so why do we need to pay for them to leave? For the umpteenth time, if there are no jobs, and they are denied ALL benefits, they will return home. I donít know why you pro-illegals continue to act as though amnesty and deportation are our ONLY options. They are here for what they can get. Eliminate the incentives, and there is absolutely no reason for them to stay. They have no legal basis for remaining in this country. Therefore, they have two options: they can leave voluntarily, or they will be forcibly removed.

In any case, I would prefer to pay $200 billion and be rid of these parasites, than to pay untold billions annually by allowing them to stay. It's a no-brainer.

You would rather spend nearly $300 billion up front not to mention a loss of sales tax revenue in low income communities, an increase of hiring costs, a decrease in productivity, rather than try to collect taxes? That doesn't makes sense.

For the millionth time, economics doesn't work the way you it does. If there is a demand, it will be met. That's the way of economics. There is a demand for cheap labor. It will be met. There is a demand for jobs. That too will be met. Not on the formal sectors, but informally. Thus, a reduction of income tax revenue. Your hypothesis about illegal immigration and unemployment doesn't make ANY sense. If it did, we would expect the highest rates of unemployment to be during the early 2000s when illegal immigration populations were higher. However, we had extremely low unemployment.

When dealing with illegal immigration, you need to look at supply side economics.

Also both sides of the issue agree the number is roughly 12 million people...not 20. As for doing jobs Americans don't want...the theory HASN'T been thoroughly debunked.

I never stated that deportation or amnesty are our ONLY options. You can do both. I'm more an advocate for looking what contributions the individuals have made. I also know that voluntary deportation just doesn't make sense. Yes illegal immigrants are returning back to Mexico, but it's a relatively small number.

Look, that's great you like your country. However, policy should be based on real economics and real situations. I don't really see that from your arguments. You're arguing a hypothetical (voluntary deportations) and not taking into consideration other aspects. So it's not based on real economics and real situations. With that said I've only seen 1 good point you've made...the discrepancy in tax collection. Oddly, it was me who brought it up and you agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mollies mom View Post
In any case, I would prefer to pay $200 billion and be rid of these parasites, than to pay untold billions annually by allowing them to stay. It's a no-brainer.
I'll go one further and say that I would hasten a guess that most citizens would contribute to a general fund voluntarily to send them all home if they couldn't pay on their own with what they have squirrled away while working off the books and collecting those benefits they love![/quote]

That sounds like a really bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
There is plenty of misplaced emotion and compassion on the pro-illegal side and they are too ticked off to see straight. They aren't thinking rationally, most of them are thinking with an ethnocentric mindset.

I agree that there are many who are emotional "pro-illegals". But I'm pro-illegal...I'm advocating a more moderate approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani View Post
I think most of us understand the legal process.
I think this process should be eliminated if one is an illegal alien.
Why? Because they are either here legally or illegally - very black and white! Legally here, no problem. Illegal, then board the next bus or plane home.
I don't think that many know the legal process. It's not that black and white. There are many nuances. For example there are historical legal precedents for illegal immigrants rights. Not to many people know that. It's obscure and requires a large amount of research (or a few friends in law school).

It's a nuanced subject that needs to be treated as such.

Last edited by Yac; 09-16-2010 at 04:22 AM.. Reason: 4 posts in a row merged
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:05 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Califreeman View Post
You would rather spend nearly $300 billion up front not to mention a loss of sales tax revenue in low income communities, an increase of hiring costs, a decrease in productivity, rather than try to collect taxes? That doesn't makes sense.

For the millionth time, economics doesn't work the way you it does. If there is a demand, it will be met. That's the way of economics. There is a demand for cheap labor. It will be met. There is a demand for jobs. That too will be met. Not on the formal sectors, but informally. Thus, a reduction of income tax revenue. Your hypothesis about illegal immigration and unemployment doesn't make ANY sense. If it did, we would expect the highest rates of unemployment to be during the early 2000s when illegal immigration populations were higher. However, we had extremely low unemployment.

When dealing with illegal immigration, you need to look at supply side economics.

Also both sides of the issue agree the number is roughly 12 million people...not 20. As for doing jobs Americans don't want...the theory HASN'T been thoroughly debunked.

I never stated that deportation or amnesty are our ONLY options. You can do both. I'm more an advocate for looking what contributions the individuals have made. I also know that voluntary deportation just doesn't make sense. Yes illegal immigrants are returning back to Mexico, but it's a relatively small number.

Look, that's great you like your country. However, policy should be based on real economics and real situations. I don't really see that from your arguments. You're arguing a hypothetical (voluntary deportations) and not taking into consideration other aspects. So it's not based on real economics and real situations. With that said I've only seen 1 good point you've made...the discrepancy in tax collection. Oddly, it was me who brought it up and you agreed.

I'll go one further and say that I would hasten a guess that most citizens would contribute to a general fund voluntarily to send them all home if they couldn't pay on their own with what they have squirrled away while working off the books and collecting those benefits they love!

That sounds like a really bad idea.

I agree that there are many who are emotional "pro-illegals". But I'm pro-illegal...I'm advocating a more moderate approach.

I don't think that many know the legal process. It's not that black and white. There are many nuances. For example there are historical legal precedents for illegal immigrants rights. Not to many people know that. It's obscure and requires a large amount of research (or a few friends in law school).

It's a nuanced subject that needs to be treated as such.
So far, your arguments are based only upon economics. Quite frankly, America was not founded strictly upon economics but includes the following:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

How do you form a perfect Union with those that wave and support their flag and history and not Americas?

How do you administer and establish Justice for those that break into our country illegally and live a life based upon lying, cheating, fraud, deceit and deception?

How do you insure Tranquility for those that refuse to assimilate into American society, learn it's language and inherit it's customs and traditions?

How do you promote the general Welfare when you steal from one (the rich) and give to another (the poor)? Does this not violate Justice? Promoting Welfare is right. Stealing to secure Welfare is wrong.

How do you secure Liberty for our posterity if you seek to advance one group by using affirmative action to the determent of the other group? Is not Liberty to be secured for all individuals?
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: deep in the south
233 posts, read 389,830 times
Reputation: 117
Does anyone have the actual figures on what our enormous illegal population costs us right now in terms of medical, WIC, section 8, schooling ESL classes, breakfast and lunch programs, grants and all other forms of aid they currently recieve? I'd like to see that number compared to what we would spend to ship them all out. Would the saving from not paying out all those collective benefits put a large or small dent in the deportation process to get them out, or would that amount of savings actually supass the amount it would cost to deport? I don't know where to look for those types of figures but I'd really be interested in seeing amounts of such.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,207,047 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollies mom View Post
Does anyone have the actual figures on what our enormous illegal population costs us right now in terms of medical, WIC, section 8, schooling ESL classes, breakfast and lunch programs, grants and all other forms of aid they currently recieve? I'd like to see that number compared to what we would spend to ship them all out. Would the saving from not paying out all those collective benefits put a large or small dent in the deportation process to get them out, or would that amount of savings actually supass the amount it would cost to deport? I don't know where to look for those types of figures but I'd really be interested in seeing amounts of such.
Put it this way, the cost of deporting say, 20 million illegals, and even if they were each given $10,000 , the cost would still be in the lower millions and would only be a one time payment.
Where the cost of illegals recieving government assisted benefits, which is paid on a daily,monthly and annual basis and is paid every year, comes out in the high Billions annually.

To simplify this,
I would prefer paying,lets say, 10 million one time,
rather than paying 10 billion every year.

You see, there really is no comprison.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:05 PM
 
Location: deep in the south
233 posts, read 389,830 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
Put it this way, the cost of deporting say, 20 million illegals, and even if they were each given $10,000 , the cost would still be in the lower millions and would only be a one time payment.
Where the cost of illegals recieving government assisted benefits, which is paid on a daily,monthly and annual basis and is paid every year, comes out in the high Billions annually.

To simplify this,
I would prefer paying,lets say, 10 million one time,
rather than paying 10 billion every year.

You see, there really is no comprison.


Thanks so much for the numbers. That is exactly what I was looking for. Regardless tho if it worked out to be less or more to deport them, I still feel they should all be deported just for the fact that they broke the number one immigration law and jumped the border and the fact that so many Americans are out of work right now and we owe it to our own people who have contributed all their lives to try to provides jobs for them.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:08 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollies mom View Post
Does anyone have the actual figures on what our enormous illegal population costs us right now in terms of medical, WIC, section 8, schooling ESL classes, breakfast and lunch programs, grants and all other forms of aid they currently recieve? I'd like to see that number compared to what we would spend to ship them all out. Would the saving from not paying out all those collective benefits put a large or small dent in the deportation process to get them out, or would that amount of savings actually supass the amount it would cost to deport? I don't know where to look for those types of figures but I'd really be interested in seeing amounts of such.
Those stats have been posted in here numerous times by many members. You will need to search for them.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:11 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
Put it this way, the cost of deporting say, 20 million illegals, and even if they were each given $10,000 , the cost would still be in the lower millions and would only be a one time payment.
Where the cost of illegals recieving government assisted benefits, which is paid on a daily,monthly and annual basis and is paid every year, comes out in the high Billions annually.

To simplify this,
I would prefer paying,lets say, 10 million one time,
rather than paying 10 billion every year.

You see, there really is no comprison.
Would it not be better (and cheaper) to put a bounty on each illegal migrant? ICE could create a web site of known illegals, and pay the bounty hunters to capture and release them on the other side of the border. And perhaps add a bonus incentive for each migrant captured that did not return, within say 5 year period. I think if we really tried we could come up with a way to make it happen for a lot less than it costs to keep them here now.

Granted, this approach may not be perfect, but I bet illegal migration would be greatly reduced.
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