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Old 06-29-2007, 10:21 AM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,468,700 times
Reputation: 1408

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So, we have 12-20 million illegal aliens in our country. Supporters say we NEED these people to do jobs Americans won't do. Employers say they NEED these people because they work cheap. Detractors say we have plenty of Ameicans to do the jobs. Employers say Americans cost too much. So, basically, is this the real problem? Americans are among the most protected workers in the world. We have Work Comp, we can sue for unemployment if we get fired, employers have to pay taxes on us, etc. How do we make it more attractive to employ Americans than it is to employ illegal aliens and pay under the table?
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:57 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,957,846 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
So, we have 12-20 million illegal aliens in our country. Supporters say we NEED these people to do jobs Americans won't do. Employers say they NEED these people because they work cheap. Detractors say we have plenty of Ameicans to do the jobs. Employers say Americans cost too much. So, basically, is this the real problem? Americans are among the most protected workers in the world. We have Work Comp, we can sue for unemployment if we get fired, employers have to pay taxes on us, etc. How do we make it more attractive to employ Americans than it is to employ illegal aliens and pay under the table?
ENFORCEMENT OF CURRENT LAW!!!!!

If we enforce the law regarding the hiring of illegal aliens, then employers would think twice about hiring them. They would be forced to offer a living wage to American citizens. There would still be a few renegade employers, but most would toe the line. The penalty has to fit the crime. Jail time and a huge fine should do the trick.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:00 PM
 
4,347 posts, read 8,097,701 times
Reputation: 6241
50 years ago this country had fewer illegal immigrants. Our economy did not collapse. In fact, your parents will tell you that things were much better then. Don't ever fall for the lies greedy companies tell you. They found a cheap source of labor and want to hang on to it for as long as they can even though they know it is against the law.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:21 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,159,374 times
Reputation: 1040
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
50 years ago this country had fewer illegal immigrants. Our economy did not collapse. In fact, your parents will tell you that things were much better then. Don't ever fall for the lies greedy companies tell you. They found a cheap source of labor and want to hang on to it for as long as they can even though they know it is against the law.

Exactly! And up until now they have gotten away with it. Hopefully we will see some meaningful workplace enforcement now.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,468,700 times
Reputation: 1408
Of course the laws need enforced! But that is not what I mean. Is there more that needs to be done? It's not all about big companies. Lots of AMERICANS hire illegals to save a buck and save a headache. So much less red tape, just go to the corner and pick up a worker. No worry about 10-9's's or insurance, just pay a flat rate, get your work done and be done with it. So, my question is about targeting the employer both for the crime they commit by hiring illegals AND could we make it easier to hire legals? Could work comp insurance be more affordable, for example.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:35 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,957,846 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
Of course the laws need enforced! But that is not what I mean. Is there more that needs to be done? It's not all about big companies. Lots of AMERICANS hire illegals to save a buck and save a headache. So much less red tape, just go to the corner and pick up a worker. No worry about 10-9's's or insurance, just pay a flat rate, get your work done and be done with it. So, my question is about targeting the employer both for the crime they commit by hiring illegals AND could we make it easier to hire legals? Could work comp insurance be more affordable, for example.
If ICE starts lurking around DLC's the amount of readily available illegal labor will dramatically decrease.

There is no doubt that the insurance companies have employers by the short hairs. But hiring illegal aliens is not the way to circumvent the insurance companies. Small businesses which incur high workman's comp costs should band together and begin lobbying on their own behalf. They can't wait for someone to change the system because greed will ensure that change never comes. It will have to be instigated somewhere.
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:46 PM
 
284 posts, read 1,577,414 times
Reputation: 190
It is a gross exaggeration that illegals are just filling the jobs Americans don't want. Otherwise, legitimate employers wouldn't have to verify employees' Social Security numbers, drivers licenses, etc. There are legitimate companies that have to pay their legal employees to verify documentation because of the illegals who are buying their identity cards to get jobs, trying to fool the legitimate employers into hiring them.

Once again, it is the law abiding citizens who are paying the price for this country's refusal to enforce our immigration laws. IMHO, it is so illogical that legitimate employers have to be the immigration police when our government refuses to, so to those employers who have to spend the money, time and resources trying to keep illegals off your payrolls, my hat is off to you!
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,615 posts, read 9,430,780 times
Reputation: 5474
I have never worked in an environment where a large company with a sizeable payroll has employed illegal immigrants. I have only heard reports of large jobs like Dulles Airport where the government contractors has large numbers of illegals working on the construction there. I have never seen it in private sector jobs except for the small mom and pop operations.

In the cases where I have observed it, it has been a result of two scenarios. First scenario is the short term need. A job requires a strong back for a short period of time and little notice is available. Rains have delayed jobs, or an accident produces more work just before a deadline, etc... It is often impossible to find someone to come in for a day job, or with no notice to work for a week, without resorting to a day labor pickup site. Unfortunately, in my area, there are few legal citizens that are able to perform hard labor that hang around these recruiting sites. Some, but very few. Calling a temp agency is not feasible because it often takes too long to make arrangements through them and the guy doing the hiring cannot be away from the site long enough to do all the paper work and then wait for them to call with an applicant. He needs someone in the next two hours, not the next few days...maybe.

The second scenario is the one that is the more egregious and is the one most people think of as the main source of illegal employment. It is significant, but again not with major employers. A small contractor needs extra workers but does not have time or perhaps the ability to train them. He asks his current workers if they can recommend anyone. In my area, most of the population is hispanic, and most of the recommendations are relatives or friends. These are sometimes relatives or friends that have recently arrived in our country and not always documented. The contractor needs skilled manpower and has a recommended worker, so he looks the other way until he has time to find someone else. He just never seems to get the time despite his best intentions. After a few months or years, he gives up the idea of replacing them and just goes along. At some stage in his life, he realizes that it might be bad for the country, but it is good for him and his workers and who should he be more loyal to?

I don't know that there are really any jobs americans won't do, or that there are not Americans who will do them as cheaply as illegals will. If there are, how do we find them? Illegals tend to network better and are more willing to be visible in those areas where people with jobs can find them quickly.

I am not a hirer, but I have been around a lot of them and have been that strong back along side a lot of illegals. I do know that if I need someone, I can find an illegal much faster, easier and sometimes cheaper than I can a legal resident.
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:48 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,468,700 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholar View Post
It is a gross exaggeration that illegals are just filling the jobs Americans don't want. Otherwise, legitimate employers wouldn't have to verify employees' Social Security numbers, drivers licenses, etc. There are legitimate companies that have to pay their legal employees to verify documentation because of the illegals who are buying their identity cards to get jobs, trying to fool the legitimate employers into hiring them.

Once again, it is the law abiding citizens who are paying the price for this country's refusal to enforce our immigration laws. IMHO, it is so illogical that legitimate employers have to be the immigration police when our government refuses to, so to those employers who have to spend the money, time and resources trying to keep illegals off your payrolls, my hat is off to you!
Hah! That would be me. I get to do our pre-employment screening for my employer. It's not really all that big of a deal, but it is time consuming. Because we are a hospital and nursing home we do criminal background checks, which is the time consuming part, it takes about 10 days to get one back. Which is what made me start thinking about how simple it is to hire illegals instead of hiring legals. By the time we do the health screening, criminal background check, check references, etc. we have about 75 bucks wrapped up in the applicant before we can even offer employment. For the healthcare industry it's simple though, just call an agency and you can have a shift filled immediately. So, then you suspect we are hiring illegals, and report us. (hypothetically of course). I.C.E. comes in and finds illegals, but then can't find the contractor we paid to supply us with employees. What happens then? From what I understand that is a lot of what is going on in California crop fields. One farmer is paying a contractor $38 per hour for lettuce pickers. THIRTY-EIGHT DOLLARS AN HOUR!!! I would GLADLY pick lettuce for that! But, that is the amount going to the contractor, not the picker. So I just wonder, how do we make it that simple to hire an employee? Is there a way to prescreen people, a certificate/card or something that would cut the employers investment in an employee down? And then the work comp, can it be regulated to be more affordable? It's a killer, I assure you. And of course the taxes. It honestly costs a lot more to have a legal employee than to pay one under the table. Which is against the law I know, and I do not condone paying anyone under the table because it cheats the rest of us taxpayers, and leaves both the employer and the employee unprotected from each other.
So where would we start? Yes of course we need to enforce the law, starting with the biggest employers that hire illegals and work our way down to the Mom and Pop outfits. BUT. Then what do we replace the illegals with? If you had $20 to pay an employee per hour, and could get two illegals instead of one legal, where is the employer supposed to get the money when they need two employees? I AM NOT ADVOCATING ILLEGAL ALIEN EMPLOYMENT. This is just an issue that I thought of, not to JUSTIFY illegal alien employment, but to see if it's an issue that needs addressed to HELP ELIMINATE illegal alien employment.
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Old 06-29-2007, 05:33 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,957,846 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
I have never worked in an environment where a large company with a sizeable payroll has employed illegal immigrants. I have only heard reports of large jobs like Dulles Airport where the government contractors has large numbers of illegals working on the construction there. I have never seen it in private sector jobs except for the small mom and pop operations.

In the cases where I have observed it, it has been a result of two scenarios. First scenario is the short term need. A job requires a strong back for a short period of time and little notice is available. Rains have delayed jobs, or an accident produces more work just before a deadline, etc... It is often impossible to find someone to come in for a day job, or with no notice to work for a week, without resorting to a day labor pickup site. Unfortunately, in my area, there are few legal citizens that are able to perform hard labor that hang around these recruiting sites. Some, but very few. Calling a temp agency is not feasible because it often takes too long to make arrangements through them and the guy doing the hiring cannot be away from the site long enough to do all the paper work and then wait for them to call with an applicant. He needs someone in the next two hours, not the next few days...maybe.

The second scenario is the one that is the more egregious and is the one most people think of as the main source of illegal employment. It is significant, but again not with major employers. A small contractor needs extra workers but does not have time or perhaps the ability to train them. He asks his current workers if they can recommend anyone. In my area, most of the population is hispanic, and most of the recommendations are relatives or friends. These are sometimes relatives or friends that have recently arrived in our country and not always documented. The contractor needs skilled manpower and has a recommended worker, so he looks the other way until he has time to find someone else. He just never seems to get the time despite his best intentions. After a few months or years, he gives up the idea of replacing them and just goes along. At some stage in his life, he realizes that it might be bad for the country, but it is good for him and his workers and who should he be more loyal to?

I don't know that there are really any jobs americans won't do, or that there are not Americans who will do them as cheaply as illegals will. If there are, how do we find them? Illegals tend to network better and are more willing to be visible in those areas where people with jobs can find them quickly.

I am not a hirer, but I have been around a lot of them and have been that strong back along side a lot of illegals. I do know that if I need someone, I can find an illegal much faster, easier and sometimes cheaper than I can a legal resident.

Uh huh--that attitude is a BIG part of the problem. As far as the financial end of the deal--I guess you have no problem with slavery, because any time that someone says that bullsh*t line, "Illegals work cheaper" what they really mean is, "Please don't take away my slaves! I don't want to have to pay anyone an honest day's wage for an honest day's work!"

Americans answer job ads, Americans sign up to agencies like "Work Force", etc. They don't stand around on street corners, littering up the neighborhood, urinating on fences, and hoping that some idiot gringo will hire them for the day.
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