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Old 09-11-2010, 02:44 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,390,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
They are however the ones who get to vote with their feet.

Any one can vote with their feet. And in some states only citizens can vote.


Now you want to deny American children the use of facilities because you don't care for their parents?

The citizen children can obviously stay or come back when they are of age. Their parents put themselves and their kids in a real pickle. Guess they have some tough decisions to make in leaving their kids behind in the US or taking them back to Mexico.


Poor Americans whether legal or illegal use the ER as their personal physician. The Health Care Act may remove poor other than illegals from the ER. It will not effect illegals who are not covered.

Poor Americans are forced to pay for medical care where ever they go because they have LEGAL identification and can be tracked. Poor Americans have probably suffered the most with this influx because the jobs that were available to them now pay minimum wage. In my area, meatpacking jobs used to pay $17 per hour. They are now minimum wage.

The vast number of known terrorist came in on commercial air liners.

Yes, the KNOWN terrorists came on planes. It shouldn't have happened. And now we know they are crossing the border and you don't think we should try to STOP it? Border enforcement would put a stop to human smuggling, gun trafficing, drug running and the illegals crossing. And that's not worth it? Really? The money saved in the numerous aspects our system covers the costs associated with this issue would more than pay for it.

The TSA people are a total waste as well. The tactic used on 9/11 never works again and should never have worked in the first place. We are basically screwing up our air transport system for no purpose other than making it look good.

If I'm not mistaken, another attempt was made last Christmas. But, I agree, we have become complacent and the initial threat is now a faded memory. But the TSA, like most government positions,is inefficiant requiring three people to do the job one person should be capable of doing. And our PC society could be our undoing.

Actually the hardest hit segment was the hispanic one where unemployment for legals and illegal likely exceeds 20 or 25%. And that has its good side as the illegals have left in droves. Here is a place where fixing the illegal alien problem would likely do a lot of good. Is it not a shame that we are unwilling to do so.

Yes, it is a shame. We have Federal laws that are being ignored to the benefit of politicians and the detrement of citizens. Both parties are at fault. But it has become more blatant of late as ICE has publicly announced that illegals will not be deported unless they have committed serious offences. Almost makes you wonder who the GOOD guys are.


YOu always use that attack when you are losing the argument?

Cheap shot. You were the one that said for everyone to stand down and let those that understand the issues deal with them. A bit elitist, perhaps? And I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion. Neither of us can change the outcome of this in any way other than voting. I am a citizen and I assume you are too. So that is what our opinion is worth.


I not only have no answer I opine that it will not be fixed and will continue to fester for years yet.

You could be right but I think things are reaching a boiling point in this country right now. I know your Reid has flipped on this issue in the past as has my representation. There are high numbers for addressing this so we will see if anything happens. Probably some watered down solution that won't make anyone happy on either side.


And again as soon as you are forced to face reality you attack the messenger. None of us get to dictate a solution. It should have been put to bed 20 years ago. That failure has a price.

I'm sorry if you felt attacked, it was not my intent. I just feel that if people want to support open border policies than they should be responsible for their decisions. I have my own family to take care of and can't afford to take care of anyone elses. I give to charities and volunteer when I can. But it is MY decision. And I will help those that have contributed to this society and are having a hard time. I can't save everyone, so I will help those that I can without compromising my own family.

Simplistic solutions go no where and simply provide slogans for those who want to wish the problem away.
Maybe a start would be to quit pandering to illegals and enforce the laws we have. As you stated, the illegals moved on in Nevada when the jobs weren't there. Everyone says it's impossible to remove all illegals but geez, does that mean do nothing? Guess so, to those who like the status quo. Self deportation and border enforcement would be a heck of a start. And I think "enforce our laws" would be a great slogan.

Last edited by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?; 09-11-2010 at 02:52 PM.. Reason: bold

 
Old 09-11-2010, 03:23 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,583,249 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Maybe a start would be to quit pandering to illegals and enforce the laws we have. As you stated, the illegals moved on in Nevada when the jobs weren't there. Everyone says it's impossible to remove all illegals but geez, does that mean do nothing? Guess so, to those who like the status quo. Self deportation and border enforcement would be a heck of a start. And I think "enforce our laws" would be a great slogan.
It would be just as effective to have everyone stand outside their front door and all wish as hard as they can that the illegals should go away...and poof it is all over.

To enforce the law as written would require tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of police and prosecutors...detention faciilities for half a million. Years and years of litigation. Billions and billions of dollars.

These people are not lacking in resources. They can hide easily in plain sight. They can fight deportation. They can do so efficiently...tie up thousands and thousands of prosecutors - drag the courts to a halt.

Any solution that requires doing anything with 10 million people costs a fortune and takes forever.

And no they will not self deport. Create enough pressure and you will get some small number of departures. But far less effective than the recession. And when the recession ends...guess what?

Something close to half are already off the open payroll. You push harder and move more to the grey market. That does not make them leave...only work for less money and without paying taxes.

So you folk need to get over it. There is no easy solution. The government would have to start a massive new bureaucracy to deal with actually moving against the illegals. And the opponents will never allow it to be funded.

The goverment screwed up after 1989. We now get to pay for it. It makes no difference whether you like the solution or not. The only other option is the status quo. Which, as I have said, is the likely outcome.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 03:44 PM
 
29,988 posts, read 35,978,503 times
Reputation: 12725
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
True. I would like to put the problem to bed. You would not.

I am glad to see you run. Standard behavior among those who want to milk the problem rather than solve it.

Good night.
Do you mean like those who come here illegally and milk social services from the legal American citizen-taxpayers? Those milkers or their apologist enablers?

Law abiding citizens "need to get over it"? Really? For expecting those entering our country to abide by our laws? I'd suggest the illegals get over it, as in, get back over the fence. I have no respect for those who come here illegally nor those who choose to enable them. They are accessories to the criminal invaders.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 07:08 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,390,520 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
It would be just as effective to have everyone stand outside their front door and all wish as hard as they can that the illegals should go away...and poof it is all over.

No I expect that we will get some actual leadership in this country with some common sense. Certainly not all politicians are such simpletons.
At least Hillary had the time to actually notice last week that Mexico is looking like Columbia, and we don't need that here.

To enforce the law as written would require tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of police and prosecutors...detention faciilities for half a million. Years and years of litigation. Billions and billions of dollars.

Sounds like a big effing (oops I'm not Biden) deal doesn't it. But I think it is quite exaggerated. With proper leadership, I'm sure it could be streamlined. You have citzenship papers or you don't. The bus is outside waiting. Next in line?

These people are not lacking in resources. They can hide easily in plain sight. They can fight deportation. They can do so efficiently...tie up thousands and thousands of prosecutors - drag the courts to a halt.

ACLU can't be everywhere at once. You are a citizen or not. Simple!

Any solution that requires doing anything with 10 million people costs a fortune and takes forever.

I hear ya. Like food, clothes, shelter, education, ID theft, auto accidents that aren't covered, gangs, drugs, kidnapping, and property values falling even further, for a start. Let's take care of those expenses and get them off the books.

And no they will not self deport. Create enough pressure and you will get some small number of departures. But far less effective than the recession. And when the recession ends...guess what?

If we start enforcing e-verify and put major fines on employers with loss of business license for repeat offenders the job situation could take care of itself. Self deportation will increase if we eliminate the jobs. Get rid of illegals and the recession eases.

Something close to half are already off the open payroll. You push harder and move more to the grey market. That does not make them leave...only work for less money and without paying taxes.

Where do people get stats for this. If it is known that these people are illegal why are they still here? I'm paying for a survey on illegals and they are allowed to stay?

A fine to the employer and jail in repeat offenses. That will make people think twice before exploiting another human being!


So you folk need to get over it. There is no easy solution. The government would have to start a massive new bureaucracy to deal with actually moving against the illegals. And the opponents will never allow it to be funded.

What new bureaucracy? The laws are there, ICE is there, military is there. More judges and busses.

As a citizen I have no intention of getting over it. Sounds like numerous states will be filing the same suit as Arizona so I guess a lot of people aren't ready to just get over it. Maybe Obama will be busy enough with his countersuits against the states he took an oath to protect, that he will decide to get over it. Shameful!


The goverment screwed up after 1989. We now get to pay for it. It makes no difference whether you like the solution or not. The only other option is the status quo. Which, as I have said, is the likely outcome.
Sounds like you give up pretty easily. There are other options that any one with any problem solving skills could easily put into action. Sounds like you need to talk to more "ideas" people instead of "ideals" people. If Obama hasn't gone with a total back door amnesty before the elections we will not live with the status quo. If he continues, the democrat party will be toast. And again, JMHO.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,583,249 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Sounds like a big effing (oops I'm not Biden) deal doesn't it. But I think it is quite exaggerated. With proper leadership, I'm sure it could be streamlined. You have citzenship papers or you don't. The bus is outside waiting. Next in line?
You postiition is idiotic. Those caught at the border voluntarily deport. They agree to it. Those established in the US don't. Takes months to years to deport someone who does not voluntarily agree. They file for relief on any one of a number of basis. That requires hiring and lawyers and that the government prove its case. Ten of thousands of dollars and months for each case.

Quote:
ACLU can't be everywhere at once. You are a citizen or not. Simple!
Again a simpletons position. The ACLU is not involved. It will be the army of lawyers represeting the illegals for a couple thousand each. They will automate the process...And they will make the government work for every deportation.
Months and huge expenditures. And the government knows it.

Quote:
Any solution that requires doing anything with 10 million people costs a fortune and takes forever.

I hear ya. Like food, clothes, shelter, education, ID theft, auto accidents that aren't covered, gangs, drugs, kidnapping, and property values falling even further, for a start. Let's take care of those expenses and get them off the books.
All immaterial. And untrue. But simpleton beliefs are common.


Quote:
If we start enforcing e-verify and put major fines on employers with loss of business license for repeat offenders the job situation could take care of itself. Self deportation will increase if we eliminate the jobs. Get rid of illegals and the recession eases.
Again you will simply force the illegals to the grey market. That says you will get less taxes from them.


Quote:
Where do people get stats for this. If it is known that these people are illegal why are they still here? I'm paying for a survey on illegals and they are allowed to stay?
Lots of people survey for lots of reasons...including those heavily opposed to the illegals. And the government so that we actually know who lives here.

Quote:
A fine to the employer and jail in repeat offenses. That will make people think twice before exploiting another human being!
Again simply forces the illegals underground where they will be harder to root out.


Quote:
What new bureaucracy? The laws are there, ICE is there, military is there. More judges and busses.
The existing system can't handle 300,000 people a year and that presumes that most are cooperative. That is insufficient to keep the number of illegals flat unless aided by a down economy. ICE and the whole prosecution and detention system would have to be a factor of 20 or more bigger to seriously attack the problem. That is billions and billions.

Quote:
As a citizen I have no intention of getting over it. Sounds like numerous states will be filing the same suit as Arizona so I guess a lot of people aren't ready to just get over it. Maybe Obama will be busy enough with his countersuits against the states he took an oath to protect, that he will decide to get over it. Shameful!
And all the states will lose. Just makes the unknowledgable feel better. Costs little and does no good. Obama can do nothing. He has no pot of money to fund such an operation if he wanted to...


Quote:
Sounds like you give up pretty easily. There are other options that any one with any problem solving skills could easily put into action. Sounds like you need to talk to more "ideas" people instead of "ideals" people. If Obama hasn't gone with a total back door amnesty before the elections we will not live with the status quo. If he continues, the democrat party will be toast. And again, JMHO
And that makes no difference. Demos or Repubs there will be no crack down. No stomach for it among the people. So everybody holds their position and the status quo prevails.

Well anyway by the mid 20s we will run out of people to come from Mexico. That will end part of the problem.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 07:36 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 4,262,573 times
Reputation: 1433
Sometimes there is no difference in the two. What I mean about that is there are a lot of legal immigrants who do not assimulate and do not consider America their "real" home. You can tell the difference. I`ve been around both groups of people. The ones who assimulate don`t have a since of entitlement and consider themselves Americans. They love America and are grateful instead of having a since of entitlement.They enjoy being around all different kinds of people and I enjoy being around them to.

Those who don`t assimulate hang out with those of their own culture. That also seems pretty racist to me.Especially when you don`t want to associate with others outside of your culture.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,931,891 times
Reputation: 6517
To the OP. Many of us have either gone through the process or have spouses who have gone through the process. We are quite aware of the redundancy and the costs.
Where is it written that it should be automatic and or easy?
Should we not be selective? Shouldn't we be as selective as we would be about who we allowed to enter our homes?
Those who simply force themselves upon us are making a statement. After all actions speak louder than words.
Whats the statement? ********* and your laws.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 08:07 PM
 
140 posts, read 392,811 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by hideandseekforever View Post
Maybe that is the case for non-Latinos, but many Americans of Latin American descent are now are being a target of discrimination and racism for policies and practices that they have nothing to do with. My family and I have nothing to do with corrupt American politicians or the fact that American businesses feel entitled to cheap labor. We have NOTHING to do with the incompetence of the American government when it comes to illegal immigration. My parents paid thousands of dollars and went through some incredible hoops to be here, and I have family members in the military who have passed away in the Iraq war, and that means nothing to most Americans. The fact that my skin is brown and that I have a Spanish surname sure has hell does. Spokespeople for "La Raza" no more speak for me than Rush Limbaugh speaks for all white people. This whole illegal immigration thing has honestly turned me very bitter about this country. What is the point of even trying to assimilate when nothing will appease these people? Everyone in my family speaks English, my father was a physics doctorate, I have engineers and business owners in my family, but nope. ALL most Americans see is the fact that I'm "Hispanic." They would much rather attack the random brown person on the street than attack their own politicians who enable their mess. So what's the point? On to the nihilism.
Yours is a story pretty much all African-Americans can relate to. I come from a long line of physicians and war veterans and am myself a government employee who speaks the King's English but all society can see is "welfare queen". The same with the Muslim community. Every Muslim and/or Middle Easterner is seen as a terrorist or extremist radical.
Yeah it's hard being judged as a group and having to take the blame every time another black person f-cks up. Wasn't too long ago when entire African American cities were burned to the ground when one black man was accused of rape.

This behavior is nothing new in the States. I stopped letting it get to me and even sometimes have found humor in the "stereotypes."
 
Old 09-11-2010, 08:35 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 4,262,573 times
Reputation: 1433
hide forever, when you speak of most Americans, that is a lot. But I will have to say that this isn`t the case for everybody in your position.
 
Old 09-11-2010, 10:51 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,390,520 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You postiition is idiotic. Those caught at the border voluntarily deport. They agree to it. Those established in the US don't. Takes months to years to deport someone who does not voluntarily agree. They file for relief on any one of a number of basis. That requires hiring and lawyers and that the government prove its case. Ten of thousands of dollars and months for each case.

My gawd, how long can it take to show your citizenship papers? Lawyer or not it's a simple question. I have been involved in lawsuits but this is a one issue yes or no. And I'm the idiot? Do people actually fall for that BS?


Again a simpletons position. The ACLU is not involved. It will be the army of lawyers represeting the illegals for a couple thousand each. They will automate the process...And they will make the government work for every deportation.
Months and huge expenditures. And the government knows it.


ACLU climbs the walls for the illegals. Your fears are making you delusional. Simple issue...you are or you ain't.


All immaterial. And untrue. But simpleton beliefs are common.

The expense involved in allowing illegals to remain here is certainly not immaterial or untrue. But your name calling and elitist attitude is. Been there done that. It's the common ploy of people that are losing an argument. See, that works both ways...I remember it from your previous post.


Again you will simply force the illegals to the grey market. That says you will get less taxes from them.

And the dollar amount lost from the grey market is sooo substantial in comparison to the costs associated with aiding and abetting them. Fail.


Lots of people survey for lots of reasons...including those heavily opposed to the illegals. And the government so that we actually know who lives here.

Yes and Reagans amnesty proved just how wrong they are with their estimates and polls, or have you forgotton?

The existing system can't handle 300,000 people a year and that presumes that most are cooperative. That is insufficient to keep the number of illegals flat unless aided by a down economy. ICE and the whole prosecution and detention system would have to be a factor of 20 or more bigger to seriously attack the problem. That is billions and billions.

As you say, with the existing system. If laws were enforced the jobs wouldn't be there because employers would have to hire citizens. As I said I have been to court and the judge reads everyone in the court room their rights, and each individual pleads there case. Do you have citizenship papers? Yes, free to go. No? Get on the bus. Doesn't take long.

And all the states will lose. Just makes the unknowledgable feel better. Costs little and does no good. Obama can do nothing. He has no pot of money to fund such an operation if he wanted to...

How do the states lose? Again the names? Please, ya gotta have something better, right? He has money for meaningless lawsuits against states that he is supposed to represent! He has money for turtle crossings under a highway. Duh, I guess I'll just agree that he does nothing.


And that makes no difference. Demos or Repubs there will be no crack down. No stomach for it among the people. So everybody holds their position and the status quo prevails.

Among the people? Are you hiding under a rock? The polls are definatly against amnesty and want this stopped now. Anyone that runs on this platform and doesn't follow through will be done. Dems want the votes so they're attempting a back door amnesty. They count on the ignorance of people not to realize what is going on. Elitist and out of touch. They will be exposed.

Well anyway by the mid 20s we will run out of people to come from Mexico. That will end part of the problem.
If this continues to the 20s it won't matter because any one with any money will move it and the economy will crumble. But isn't that part of the plan?

Last edited by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?; 09-11-2010 at 10:56 PM.. Reason: spelling
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