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Old 09-11-2010, 10:01 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,384,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
To the OP. Many of us have either gone through the process or have spouses who have gone through the process. We are quite aware of the redundancy and the costs.
Where is it written that it should be automatic and or easy?
Should we not be selective? Shouldn't we be as selective as we would be about who we allowed to enter our homes?
Those who simply force themselves upon us are making a statement. After all actions speak louder than words.
Whats the statement? ********* and your laws.

Excellent post showing some good common sense.

 
Old 09-12-2010, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
It would be just as effective to have everyone stand outside their front door and all wish as hard as they can that the illegals should go away...and poof it is all over.

To enforce the law as written would require tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of police and prosecutors...detention faciilities for half a million. Years and years of litigation. Billions and billions of dollars.

These people are not lacking in resources. They can hide easily in plain sight. They can fight deportation. They can do so efficiently...tie up thousands and thousands of prosecutors - drag the courts to a halt.

Any solution that requires doing anything with 10 million people costs a fortune and takes forever.

And no they will not self deport. Create enough pressure and you will get some small number of departures. But far less effective than the recession. And when the recession ends...guess what?

Something close to half are already off the open payroll. You push harder and move more to the grey market. That does not make them leave...only work for less money and without paying taxes.

So you folk need to get over it. There is no easy solution. The government would have to start a massive new bureaucracy to deal with actually moving against the illegals. And the opponents will never allow it to be funded.

The goverment screwed up after 1989. We now get to pay for it. It makes no difference whether you like the solution or not. The only other option is the status quo. Which, as I have said, is the likely outcome.
If true, how will we “enforce” a new law (CIR) which would require far more resources, if it’s already prohibitive to enforce our current laws?

If we allow illegals to remain, how will we conduct thorough background checks on 20+ million to ensure we aren’t legalizing violent criminals, or wanted fugitives? Moreover, how we will determine which of the numerous aliases is their actual identity?

How will we monitor their activities during the “path to citizenship” process to ensure they remain compliant, when we can’t even monitor tourist visas?

How will we fund the classes for the so-called English language requirement, considering our current ESL classes are bankrupting school systems?

Did it EVER occur to you that all of this requires funding? Should we reduce spending in other areas to allocate funds for the legalization of illegal aliens? Which programs should we scrap to accommodate foreign invaders? Any suggestions?

Reading your comments, one would believe there are no costs associated with legalizing 20+ million illegal aliens. In the long-term, it will cost us in the trillions if we allow illegals to remain in this country. They WILL go, and they MUST go. And, we don’t need their cooperation or permission.

The status quo exists NOT because our laws can’t be enforced. Rather, because our laws are deliberately being ignored. You may be willing to throw in the towel and embrace illegal immigration as an unavoidable consequence of our porous borders, but I damn sure won’t. Nor will millions of other citizens.
 
Old 09-12-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,027,117 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If true, how will we ďenforceĒ a new law (CIR) which would require far more resources, if itís already prohibitive to enforce our current laws?

If we allow illegals to remain, how will we conduct thorough background checks on 20+ million to ensure we arenít legalizing violent criminals, or wanted fugitives? Moreover, how we will determine which of the numerous aliases is their actual identity?

How will we monitor their activities during the ďpath to citizenshipĒ process to ensure they remain compliant, when we canít even monitor tourist visas?

How will we fund the classes for the so-called English language requirement, considering our current ESL classes are bankrupting school systems?

Did it EVER occur to you that all of this requires funding? Should we reduce spending in other areas to allocate funds for the legalization of illegal aliens? Which programs should we scrap to accommodate foreign invaders? Any suggestions?

Reading your comments, one would believe there are no costs associated with legalizing 20+ million illegal aliens. In the long-term, it will cost us in the trillions if we allow illegals to remain in this country. They WILL go, and they MUST go. And, we donít need their cooperation or permission.

The status quo exists NOT because our laws canít be enforced. Rather, because our laws are deliberately being ignored. You may be willing to throw in the towel and embrace illegal immigration as an unavoidable consequence of our porous borders, but I damn sure wonít. Nor will millions of other citizens.
The truth. The whole truth. And, nothing but the truth.
 
Old 09-12-2010, 12:18 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,508,894 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If true, how will we ďenforceĒ a new law (CIR) which would require far more resources, if itís already prohibitive to enforce our current laws?
If you are talking about amnesty the expense is controllable and can be spread over years...and mostly the immigrants can be required to pay the bill.

Quote:
If we allow illegals to remain, how will we conduct thorough background checks on 20+ million to ensure we arenít legalizing violent criminals, or wanted fugitives? Moreover, how we will determine which of the numerous aliases is their actual identity?
The same way we do now...or don't do.


Quote:
How will we monitor their activities during the ďpath to citizenshipĒ process to ensure they remain compliant, when we canít even monitor tourist visas?
Same way we do now only better...because they are now identified at least.

Quote:
How will we fund the classes for the so-called English language requirement, considering our current ESL classes are bankrupting school systems?
Same way we do now. ESL are a gnit and go to mostly US citizens.

Quote:
Did it EVER occur to you that all of this requires funding? Should we reduce spending in other areas to allocate funds for the legalization of illegal aliens? Which programs should we scrap to accommodate foreign invaders? Any suggestions?
Of course. But vastly less than running the pogrom. And at least partially billable to the immigrant. Controllable as to timing.

Quote:
Reading your comments, one would believe there are no costs associated with legalizing 20+ million illegal aliens. In the long-term, it will cost us in the trillions if we allow illegals to remain in this country. They WILL go, and they MUST go. And, we donít need their cooperation or permission.
Just vastly less that the cost of the unbelieveable expensive and likely non-doable deportation program.

Quote:
The status quo exists NOT because our laws canít be enforced. Rather, because our laws are deliberately being ignored. You may be willing to throw in the towel and embrace illegal immigration as an unavoidable consequence of our porous borders, but I damn sure wonít. Nor will millions of other citizens.
Nope. Just pointing out that you folk have no way of initiating anything and therefore are backing the status quo. That is the worst of all worlds.

A deportation exercise has been costed at about 215 Billion. I think that likely light as it assumes the influx stops. And as the right always points out such government program always increase in cost when actually underway.

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Nation -- Cost of expelling 12 million illegal immigrants: $215 billion

I would think the consensus even on the right is that it is unacceptably expensive and would completely disrupt the economy.
 
Old 09-12-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
If you are talking about amnesty the expense is controllable and can be spread over years...and mostly the immigrants can be required to pay the bill.

The same way we do now...or don't do.

Same way we do now only better...because they are now identified at least.

Same way we do now. ESL are a gnit and go to mostly US citizens.

Of course. But vastly less than running the pogrom. And at least partially billable to the immigrant. Controllable as to timing.

Just vastly less that the cost of the unbelieveable expensive and likely non-doable deportation program.


Nope. Just pointing out that you folk have no way of initiating anything and therefore are backing the status quo. That is the worst of all worlds.

A deportation exercise has been costed at about 215 Billion. I think that likely light as it assumes the influx stops. And as the right always points out such government program always increase in cost when actually underway.

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Nation -- Cost of expelling 12 million illegal immigrants: $215 billion

I would think the consensus even on the right is that it is unacceptably expensive and would completely disrupt the economy.
I never mentioned deportation. If we enforce our laws, and make it impossible for illegal aliens to work, they will have no recourse but return home. Didnít they come here seeking a better life?

How will low-wage earners who cannot even afford to support their own children magically afford to pay billions to cover the costs of legalization? They canít, and citizens should not be burdened.

How will we identify illegal aliens? Or, shall we simply use the honor system?

Billable to illegals? Surely you jest. If that were the case, we would bill them for the billions they have received in medical care.

Again, how can we afford to enforce a new law, yet lack the resources to enforce our current? You have not answered that question. What will be the source of our funding? Moreover, who will pay for the millions of family members they will eventually bring through family reunification? And, please donít say illegals will pay, because we all know they canít, and wonít.
 
Old 09-12-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,508,894 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I never mentioned deportation. If we enforce our laws, and make it impossible for illegal aliens to work, they will have no recourse but return home. Didn’t they come here seeking a better life?
There is no way to do that. What you do is force them from any legal job to the gray market. Five years ago a little less than half the illegals worked off the books. Probably more like 60% with the lousey economy. You crack down you move another 10 percent to the gray market. They will go home if no jobs are available...but mostly they move from the legal to the gray market.

Quote:
How will low-wage earners who cannot even afford to support their own children magically afford to pay billions to cover the costs of legalization? They can’t, and citizens should not be burdened.
Actually who said they were impoverished? Given a chance at legalization watch the money roll out. The normal complaint is they send all the money home to the relatives. Some are certainly hurting in this economy...with the present status in Las Vegas it is likely that the hispanic unemployment is past 25%. But get an economic pickup...that can change quick..and being able to get work status? More income. And note even now 75% are still working.

Quote:
How will we identify illegal aliens? Or, shall we simply use the honor system?
Same way we do now I suppose. Given a shot at legality they will come pouring out to prove their status.

Quote:
Billable to illegals? Surely you jest. If that were the case, we would bill them for the billions they have received in medical care.
Again you have these odd ball ideas. The majority of the hospital ER dead beats are Americans. And the hospital can't collect because they have no money. Same problem with the illegals. And we do bill them but the system makes it virtually impossible to track them...on SS number.

Quote:
Again, how can we afford to enforce a new law, yet lack the resources to enforce our current? You have not answered that question. What will be the source of our funding? Moreover, who will pay for the millions of family members they will eventually bring through family reunification? And, please don’t say illegals will pay, because we all know they can’t, and won’t.
We could easily have enforced our immigration laws. In 1989/90/91/92 it could have been done easily and effectively. Talk to Reagan and Bush. But we let the problem slip away until it grew to gargantuan size. The existing system can handle roughly 300,000 or 350,000 cooperative illegals a year. That is roughly the annual arrival rate in a lousey economy and half the arrival rate in a good one.

So you can't make them self deport as they just migrate to the grey economy...note that that is an oncoming freight train as well.. We are providing the circumstances that make people operate outside of the legal economy. Wait until we discover that the grey market is out of control and we don't know how to force it back.

And actually deporting is impractical to impossible.

And the right will never agree to an amnesty and can likely block it for the forseeable future.

So the status quo. For a long, long time yet.

and note that immigration is not an issue with legs. People care but not enough to influence their vote. Perhaps 10% the import of the economy. So it likely never gets fixed...
 
Old 09-12-2010, 01:54 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,384,513 times
Reputation: 1544
A deportation exercise has been costed at about 215 Billion. I think that likely light as it assumes the influx stops. And as the right always points out such government program always increase in cost when actually underway.

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Nation -- Cost of expelling 12 million illegal immigrants: $215 billion

I would think the consensus even on the right is that it is unacceptably expensive and would completely disrupt the economy.[/quote]


I have a feeling that your Obama wouldn't be feeling near as much pain right now if he had spent 215 bil of that stimulus on deportation. Probably would have earned more votes than he hopes to steal with his back door amnesty. But than again some people never learn the value of EARNING any thing. Much easier to just legislate someone else out of their money.

And I doubt Obama has any idea what the right thinks since he doesn't have time for anyone that doesn't push his agenda. Has he read the Arizona law yet?
 
Old 09-12-2010, 02:19 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,508,894 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post

I have a feeling that your Obama wouldn't be feeling near as much pain right now if he had spent 215 bil of that stimulus on deportation. Probably would have earned more votes than he hopes to steal with his back door amnesty. But than again some people never learn the value of EARNING any thing. Much easier to just legislate someone else out of their money.

And I doubt Obama has any idea what the right thinks since he doesn't have time for anyone that doesn't push his agenda. Has he read the Arizona law yet?
Silliness. Right would have jumped all over him for increasing the deficit. Much of the right understands there is only one issue in this election - the economy. This mornings Review Journal in Las Vegas has a poll showing that the economy is listed by 72% of the electorate as the big issue. Immigration is in third with 5%.

That is one of the things you folks miss. Immigration is simply not a big issue.
 
Old 09-12-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Native Floridian, USA
4,896 posts, read 5,868,917 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
I disagree with your posted premise. Most Americans DO NOT see legal immigrants and illegal aliens as the same. Most Americans are smart enough to see the difference, & to appreciate those who go through the process dictated by our laws. You are correct in that supporters of and apologists for illegal immigrants TRY to make the two groups seem equal, and to demonize anyone opposed to illegals as anti-immigration racist xenophobes, but I think most Americans are smart enough to know the difference, even if they don't know the details of the legal immigration process.
Further, I believe the issue MOST Americans are unsure of is how to deal with the current illegal population. While rounding them all up & deporting them SOUNDS like a great idea, most people see the difficulty of that solution. At the same time, I think most do not support any sort of amnesty, which would basically be a reward for those who have managed to break our laws & defy our policies and live here illegally.
Excellent post and why cant most, if not all, be rounded up ? Why do people find that so bad ? I am intelligent enough to recognize that that smacks of pograms, etc, but, all one would have to do in my area would be to go to WM on the weekend and the place is packed with (illegal ?) immigrants, not speaking English, with several very small children in tow.

I feel bad for the children but, what about my grandchildren and their children ? What about their job prospects ?Their quality of life after the drain on the resources and pocket books of middle America to provide for them a better life ? Charity begins at home and we have millions out of work and living below the poverty level. Why not take care of our own and then we can take care of others.....
 
Old 09-12-2010, 03:00 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,508,894 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieA View Post
Excellent post and why cant most, if not all, be rounded up ? Why do people find that so bad ? I am intelligent enough to recognize that that smacks of pograms, etc, but, all one would have to do in my area would be to go to WM on the weekend and the place is packed with (illegal ?) immigrants, not speaking English, with several very small children in tow.

I feel bad for the children but, what about my grandchildren and their children ? What about their job prospects ?Their quality of life after the drain on the resources and pocket books of middle America to provide for them a better life ? Charity begins at home and we have millions out of work and living below the poverty level. Why not take care of our own and then we can take care of others.....
The rub of course is that these chldren are ours. We let them stay and their parents earn a living. Many of these children have never live anywhere else in their memory .

So what we are proposing to do is send them off to a foreign country where they have no roots or experience.

We also have a substantial investment in these children. It costs a bundle to educate a child through high school. As a general note people pay more in to the society when they complete education above high school. High school is about the break even point. So we can expect these children to be neutral or better in their economic dealings with the society.

We have no legal committment to these kids...but we do have a moral one.
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