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Old 09-16-2010, 07:17 PM
 
660 posts, read 1,189,006 times
Reputation: 288

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Hey pro-illegal, your cave dwelling friends need your support on this thread.

Illegals living in Caves Directing Drugs & Human smuggling on personal property in AZ.

Surely you can come up with a reason why this is ok?
LOL! Thank you for the good laugh!

 
Old 09-16-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: California
884 posts, read 585,091 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Califreeman View Post
As for the youtube video, it doesn't illustrate the majority of people. It is an extreme case. You can also make claims of CITIZENS with $1.5 million or more in debt. If anything, it serves to illustrate the fact that more needs to be done to change our current laws of entering into this nation.

Not to mention the costs of education are FAR less than the cost of not educating those people who most likely would remain in our nation.

There are two costs in this narrative. I think you aren't taking into consideration the long term impacts of denying an education. They still will come here (because of the way economics work). They still will have families. Are we willing to simply turn a blind eye to the fact that not providing an education costs CA FAR more than providing an education.

So essentially I guess you can argue that education costs are higher in the short term, but save the tax payer greatly in the long term.
Califreeman let me ask you two questions and I would like you to just answer these SIMPLE questions with YES or NO and not try to spin the questions.

1. If the illegal with the $1.5 million hospital debt was NOT in this county in the first place would the hospital have that bill, regardless of how many LEGAL CITIZENS owe?? (and btw there are many illegals with extremly high hospital debts). Remember its a simple yes or no.

2. If the illegals weren't here in the first place would our education system have to worry about how to pay for them?? YES or NO..

Now remember I am asking this without the spin "they will still come here because of the way economics works".
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:17 PM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Hey pro-illegal, your cave dwelling friends need your support on this thread.

Illegals living in Caves Directing Drugs & Human smuggling on personal property in AZ.

Surely you can come up with a reason why this is ok?
It doesn't matter. It's not unique to illegal immigrants. So I will say, this is a red herring argument. If it's not unique to illegal immigrants, then it's not an illegal issue.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:20 PM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvmycountry View Post
Califreeman let me ask you two questions and I would like you to just answer these SIMPLE questions with YES or NO and not try to spin the questions.

1. If the illegal with the $1.5 million hospital debt was NOT in this county in the first place would the hospital have that bill, regardless of how many LEGAL CITIZENS owe?? (and btw there are many illegals with extremly high hospital debts). Remember its a simple yes or no.

2. If the illegals weren't here in the first place would our education system have to worry about how to pay for them?? YES or NO..

Now remember I am asking this without the spin "they will still come here because of the way economics works".
First off, if you're thinking in such diametric terms...you don't have a grasp of the situation. I can't answer yes or no...since there are too many complexities involved (which, by you asking a yes or no question and extrapolating a scenario to be your ideal policy implies you don't understand those complexities).

Look, concerning the "spin", it's not my fault you don't know basic economic principles.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:27 PM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladysovereign View Post
That does not include College education and it never meant to. And it also didn't mean to include free books and meals either which is what Financial Aid also pays for. The lawmakers and bill creators of the US are adding on to over stressed budgets by trying to make everyone equal in every way. That's Socialism, not Capitalism which is what the US is supposed to be founded on.
Please don't come off this ridiculous. Some aspects of socialism aren't bad. Just as some aspects of capitalism aren't good. Regardless, how do you know what the founders intended? Not to mention that socialism wasn't even a political ideology during the Enlightenment. Did the founding fathers intend for laissez faire capitalism and economic apartheid? I mean the statement that "all men are created equal". The point is that when a country decides that learning a trade or going to college is a privilege that's the point when we start to see a breakdown and a less competitive edge. It means that the populace holds those in low esteem. That's a dangerous sentiment to have.

College should, at least, be cheaper. Why start your children off in tens of thousands of dollars in debt? That's not sustainable for a society.

College education will help make productive members of the illegal immigrant population. If the children of illegal immigrants are able to obtain what 70% of the general population is unable to obtain, that merits something. It's the college educated that are our teachers, doctors, engineers, etc. In the long run, the benefits far outweigh the costs.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: California
884 posts, read 585,091 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Califreeman View Post
First off, if you're thinking in such diametric terms...you don't have a grasp of the situation. I can't answer yes or no...since there are too many complexities involved (which, by you asking a yes or no question and extrapolating a scenario to be your ideal policy implies you don't understand those complexities).

Look, concerning the "spin", it's not my fault you don't know basic economic principles.
Somehow I knew you wouldn't answer the questions, but instead attack.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:54 PM
 
344 posts, read 153,106 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvmycountry View Post
Somehow I knew you wouldn't answer the questions, but instead attack.
It's not an attack. The fact you asked a specific question to apply to general policy lends itself to not understanding much about the situation. That's all. Its a typical fallacy. If John saw one brown cow, John could be inclined to think ALL cows are brown. Obviously, not ALL cows are brown. The point is that you're about to take one specific example and generalize it. It doesn't work.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,396 posts, read 8,351,291 times
Reputation: 7679
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Both houses passed SB 1460, the so-called California Dream Act, by Sen. Gil Cedillo (D-Los Angeles). This is an outrage. They should be thankful they haven't been removed. I worked my way through College, these people can't?
Vote Democrat! and your wildest dreams will come true.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 05:10 PM
 
660 posts, read 1,189,006 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Califreeman View Post
Please don't come off this ridiculous. Some aspects of socialism aren't bad. Just as some aspects of capitalism aren't good. Regardless, how do you know what the founders intended?(snip)

College should, at least, be cheaper. Why start your children off in tens of thousands of dollars in debt? That's not sustainable for a society.

College education will help make productive members of the illegal immigrant population. If the children of illegal immigrants are able to obtain what 70% of the general population is unable to obtain, that merits something. It's the college educated that are our teachers, doctors, engineers, etc. In the long run, the benefits far outweigh the costs.
You're the last person who should be telling someone else that they're coming off "this ridiculous". Your bleeding heart liberalism and continual obsession with having everyone be entitled to go to College is beyond ridiculous.

Also this supposed "merit" that you think is achieved by sending Illegal Immigrant's Children (offspring of people who committed a crime to come to the U.S. illegally) to College on the Taxpayer's dime is highly specious. I guess as long as your not personally footing the bill, then it's okay to overtax the people to make everyone a Doctor, Teacher or Engineer, etc. And then what happens when those vocational fields become low paying as they have become over saturated with too many over-trained and over educated individuals. I guess then we'll all have to get PHD's to be able to compete with one another in the work place. Your logic is ridiculous and a very naive way of thinking!

Last edited by ladysovereign; 09-17-2010 at 05:19 PM..
 
Old 09-17-2010, 05:11 PM
 
660 posts, read 1,189,006 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvmycountry View Post
Somehow I knew you wouldn't answer the questions, but instead attack.
They seem to be good at that and spin everything into how helping Illegals will make the world, no matter at what cost, a better place. Ridiculous!
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