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Old 09-18-2010, 05:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ladysovereign View Post
The Illegals that come here straight from their old country aren't going to qualify for the professional jobs like Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers but giving Financial Aid to their children gives them (and already has) the ability to get the education to qualify.
That's an interesting point. I do believe that in order to attend a college or university in this country, you should legally be here. The reason why? Because of what you said: once they are able to take those positions, they will, then you no longer just have restaurants, factories, that are filled by undocumented/illegal folks, but you have jobs taken away in the next levels of employment. Of course, I think it will take some time before we start seeing significant large occurences of undocumented people taking on professional positions, but it will happen.

The other thing you said is about the chain reaction. For instance, the Dream Act. Isn't obvious that if you prepare the undocumented youth with a chance to stay in this country that eventually they are going to be able to vouch for citizenship or legal status of their immediate family? Once that immediate family becomes legalized, they then are eligible for financial aid and then they can go study and lay the framework for the next generation of family that has benefitted from the US excusing illegal immigration.

Basically, we are screwed because it is a chain reaction. There is more good for the undocumented immigrant than good for the legal US resident if amnesty or benefits are given to undocumented people. How is that OK? The reason why illegal immigration should be addressed is because the ONE issue/problem (illegal immgration) can quickly and progressively develop and contribute to MORE problems. It is a problem introduced from the outside and why should it be tolerated?
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui View Post
I used taco bell as the question posed to me was about fast food and why I thought people wouldn't care as per this topic. yes, add in roofers and the construction industry and people would be more sympathetic. I have no problem and often wonder why we are not fining our employers who hire illegals. I would hope this would at least deter employers from hiring illegals but we don't seem to bother with that for some reason. I don't see how you will ever get rid of the individual who takes advantage of the cheap help waiting for a cash day job. that goes to the character of the person looking to save 20 bucks when he has his lawn mowed. shame on them.

the non english speaking on the roads doesn't overly bother me as most of our road signs are obvious as to what they mean. I would put the uninsured or unlicensed american citizen in the same category as the illegal in this case.

credit cards fraud I agree it is a huge problem, it is a huge problem with the american criminal element as well. criminal activity like this cross the color and ethnic line. in fairness to any statics the illegal contribution should be measure in % of the overall activity not as a blanketed reason for the problem in general. sometimes when you are passionate about things it is easy to overlook. crime crosses all boundaries, it is a mind set not an ethnic thing.

adding to your great list I would add
Didn't do anything to me so not my problem.
I use illegal labor and save a bundle.
I have a friend or family member who is an illegal
apathetic about everything in life.
My thing is that this is a problem brought in from the outside. We, as US residents, citizens, voters, also have a problem with all kinds of crime, but when it is brought in by illegal immigration, you don't understand. Basically, there's the problems that we are going to have to deal with that are our own fault, the doing of our fellow Americans and then there are the problems that are here because of a huge illegal immigration problem. That makes you say, "Well, damn, we already got our own inner-issues, why do we need the addition of more issues and a multiplier of the issues we were already having." We already had gangs, ... things were actually calming down ... then the border got sloppy and the resurgence of various gangs began all over the country. It's stuff like that that makes you say, "Helloooo ... are you all (the federal government) going to do anything about this? Hello?"
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui View Post
spanish has been spoken in this country since before we were the USA you can go back to just the 40's and 50's and there were communities of spanish speaking. people have learned and do communicate in spanish in this counrty. language is about communication and friendship. you want people to assimilate to english, thats great and I agree there too. however if I have a spanish speaking neighbor or I shop in a spanish speaking store, I should have the simple ability to say hello, how are you, how much is this?, nice day today, in spanish as a way of simple open communication. a neighbor and you may speak only english most of the time but saying a little something in spanish is a way to tell them you care enough about who they are to acknowledge it with a simple greeting. be they russian, chinese, or spanish. in hawaii it is aloha, mahalo and a hui ho. are we so elitist that we only want to say things in english?

if I own a company even here in america if I want people to speak spanish to do the job I have in mind, I see it only as another requirement for that particular job. you not qualified don't apply. why should a boss hire someone who can't communicate in a way that is needed for the job?
I understand what you are saying here. I go to Chinatowns across the country, think about Miami and its language, and speak Spanish. So, I agree that language can take on friendly vibes. But ... it ISN'T! LOL We got Spanish-speaking people (some I know personally) who abuse the fact that others don't speak Spanish or try to play dumb by pretending that they don't speak English. They also abuse the dumb public assistance agencies who continue to encourage them to NOT learn English. Also ... the situations you speak of are in areas that may have a small Spanish influence, but you got cities that aren't ready for that forced situation of HAVING to speak Spanish because of the illegal immigration flow into their city or county. We all see the negatives that are occuring because people don't speak Spanish or the Immigrants don't speak English. So, what are we supposed to do? Just sit on it and wait for the English-speaking people to study their Spanish dictionaries just to communicate with their thousands or millions of undocumented neighbors and fellow residents? People don't HAVE the time to learn a new language and many don't have the ability to do that. It seems to me that everything regarding the Spanish-English discussion is in favor of those who speak English and would benefit from speaking Spanish, not the other way around (those who speak Spanish and would benefit [greatly] from learning English). Look at all the money that the government has spent translating for Spanish -speaking immigrants (most who are undocumented). Should that be acceptable? I could understand if we tried everything we could to keep illegal immigration from happening, but our government didn't and that is why illegal immigration is causing a ruckus and frenzy right now. They deserve all of the uproar and demands from people because they allowed this to happen, lol.

Also, it's not the "Hello," "How are you" that is important. Most Americans (US) know how to say all of that. When I was a little kid back in the 80s when there were like 100 Mexicans living in my city, even I knew how to say, "Hola," or "Como estas." So, it's not about those simple greetings. It's about jobs, someone being told that that have to speak Spanish to get a $40,000 job and knowing that that is only the case because of illegal immigration. It's also about the arrogance and issues I mentioned above. It's about what I saw happen last night: a Hispanic man with his wife and baby couldn't speak English, he got into an accident, I had to come over and translate. This guy had been living here for 8 years and couldn't even speak or didn't want to speak a bit of English. This happens a lot, in the grocery stores for example. It's VERY annoying to ask someone how long they have been living here in the States and they say, "13 years" but they roll up to the cashier with ther public food assistance card or check, but can't even understand what the cashier is trying to tell them (that they can't buy the pickles or sauce what that check). They look all confused and you wonder why they have been here decades but can't speak English, in places like Virginia, Illionois, Kentucky, North Carolina. It's because we are giving illegal immigrant communities a chance to set up shop in their neighborhoods and they only speak Spanish there. I once read a research report that discussed that Spanish-speaking immigrants isolate themselves from others and that creates a lack of need to speak English. That hurts the overall community and cities.

Last edited by SoEdible; 09-18-2010 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mouser View Post
As long as the murders, rapes, kidnappings, ID theft, and credit fraud is happening to everyone EXCEPT our elected local/state/federal officials, their family members, and close friends -- illegal Entry into the U.S.A. is officially NOT A PROBLEM.

The 23rd Psalm of the ILLEGALS:

Obama is my shepherd; That I shall not want. He allows my children to attend your schools; he leads me to the ACORN office. He gives me WIC commodities
...for my kids, he moves me to the head of the unemployment line.

Yea, though I cross through holes in the border fence, I will not fear immigration agents or Border Patrol; For Obama protects me and the democratic party and the liberals comfort me. Sanctuary cities protect me from Nazi, racist conservatives. Obama gives citizenship to my newborns; My uninsured and unregistered pickup truck and work van run on ... See Moreyour roads.

All of my amigos and familia will follow me across the border for all eternity and we will dwell, 4 to 5 families per home in section 8 housing, forever. Amen.
Haha.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
That's an interesting point. I do believe that in order to attend a college or university in this country, you should legally be here. The reason why? Because of what you said: once they are able to take those positions, they will, then you no longer just have restaurants, factories, that are filled by undocumented/illegal folks, but you have jobs taken away in the next levels of employment. Of course, I think it will take some time before we start seeing significant large occurences of undocumented people taking on professional positions, but it will happen.

The other thing you said is about the chain reaction. For instance, the Dream Act. Isn't obvious that if you prepare the undocumented youth with a chance to stay in this country that eventually they are going to be able to vouch for citizenship or legal status of their immediate family? Once that immediate family becomes legalized, they then are eligible for financial aid and then they can go study and lay the framework for the next generation of family that has benefitted from the US excusing illegal immigration.

Basically, we are screwed because it is a chain reaction. There is more good for the undocumented immigrant than good for the legal US resident if amnesty or benefits are given to undocumented people. How is that OK? The reason why illegal immigration should be addressed is because the ONE issue/problem (illegal immgration) can quickly and progressively develop and contribute to MORE problems. It is a problem introduced from the outside and why should it be tolerated?
You hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly what would happen. It doesn't just end at legalizing these people. After acquiring citizenship they can then sponsor their extended family members in the homeland to come here. Which means more competition for jobs, benefits and resources and more population growth.

In the IT field foreigners have already replaced many American workers and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly what would happen. It doesn't just end at legalizing these people. After acquiring citizenship they can then sponsor their extended family members in the homeland to come here. Which means more competition for jobs, benefits and resources and more population growth.

In the IT field foreigners have already replaced many American workers and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
One other thing is: what happens if the undocumented people who get amnesty from the Dream Act don't fulfill their end? What if they are excused and they start dropping out of college to work? So, basically, they would become legal, but not in school or the military (two of the options they have). How would the government keep track of their progress? Doesn't that call for resources, budget, money? It's all a big mess because the millions of undocumented people (who are unnecessarily here, thanks to our government) will constantly have to be accounted for or not (the government won't make sure they are holding their end of the deal).
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
One other thing is: what happens if the undocumented people who get amnesty from the Dream Act don't fulfill their end? What if they are excused and they start dropping out of college to work? So, basically, they would become legal, but not in school or the military (two of the options they have). How would the government keep track of their progress? Doesn't that call for resources, budget, money? It's all a big mess because the millions of undocumented people (who are unnecessarily here, thanks to our government) will constantly have to be accounted for or not (the government won't make sure they are holding their end of the deal).
Just like the pro-amnesty policians who claim to become legalized these illegals will have to learn English, pay back taxes and fines. Who is going to monitor all of that? The cost would be enormous to do so and how many wouldn't comply? Would deportation proceedings commence then? Those kind would be hiding out all over the country then. It would create a beaurocratic nightmare and create an even bigger mess then we have now.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Just like the pro-amnesty policians who claim to become legalized these illegals will have to learn English, pay back taxes and fines. Who is going to monitor all of that? The cost would be enormous to do so and how many wouldn't comply? Would deportation proceedings commence then? Those kind would be hiding out all over the country then. It would create a beaurocratic nightmare and create an even bigger mess then we have now.
This is true.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
Thanks, makes sense. However, the only thing I have to comment about is what you said about lawyers, doctors, etc. Most people aren't doctors or lawyers, so wouldn't that mean that the people left over after doctors, etc. are those who are affected be illegal immigration? I am kinda surprised by your concept that "Taco Bell workers" shouldn't be battled for. A lot of people can't do anything but work in service-based jobs, those jobs are being shared with undocumented workers. Most of the US isn't rich, doctors, lawyers, etc. and especially now, people wouldn't mind working in a full-service restaurant or fast food restaurant. Those who are legal residents, high school students and those without higher education didn't mind working those fast food jobs in the past, so what makes you think it is different now? The truth, in my opinion, is that the allowance of illegal immigration over all those years and illegal employment has conditioned us into thinking that those jobs are jobs that non immigrants won't do.

No one had a problem with working in food service, factories, until they started trying to tell us that we were too lazy to do them or uninterested in them. If a restaurant was well-managed, paid fair wages and had the standards of the old days, legal residents would be working in them. (That's why illegal immigration is like slave labor. They put them in these sub-par environments to work in and that turns off the legal residents from working in them.) When I was in high school (8 years ago), we didn't have a problem with working in fast food ... that is what you did. When you went to college, you worked another service job. So, it was never, "Eww, food service." People don't have a problem working in these places. The illegal immigration supporters want to try to make it look like we don't want to work them. In some places that have a high population of undocumented workers, you couldn't even get a job if you walked in and wanted one. The reason could be they have way too many workers already or because they don't hire anyone but Hispanic, Spanish-speaking people who are probably cousins or brothers of the undocumented worker that is already working there.
I don't mean to say that we shouldn't fight for a citizen to work at a fast food joint, I am saying if you want the public to "care" about what jobs illegals are taking away from US citizens they should be something more people can relate to. your example of construction workers is something more people would get behind than fast food. fast food business unless you are the owner has a very transient work force, it doesn't pay well enough for many people to make a career out of and it is usually just a stop over job as a young person goes through life to something more meaningful.

part of the problem is a low paying job, is a low paying job, no owner is gona want to give a worker 15, 20 bucks an hour for something that is minimum wage. it would drive the price of his product up so high no one would buy and he would lose his business. exactly whats happened with out sourcing. americans want way more than minimum wage. it is a rare young person that will work anywhere for 8 bucks an hour.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
FYI, many employers have been caught, fined and jailed although not on a large scale as it should be. That is why I am an advocate for e-verify in every workplace. That way neither the employer nor the employee can get away not following our immigration and labor laws.

Crime may cross all bounderies such as I.D. theft but do we really want to add illegals to the mix? It is enough to have to deal with our home grown criminals. Same goes for the unlicensed and uninsured American. We are stuck with them and should deal with them as they are caught but we don't need to be adding illegal aliens to that mix either through turning a blind eye to an unsecured border and only enforcing the law against hard core criminal aliens rather then catching, detaining and deporting all of them as they are found.
huge fines and it should be happening a lot so the employer is afraid to hire illegals. I don't know why it isn't happening, not enough man power to enforce? pay off from the employer to the politicians? again this is where I think a tea party group would do wonders bring attention and pressure to bear. we have the same statements about crime and who is committing them the only place I can see where we differ is which came first the chicken or the egg? secure our borders not let another illegal enter and we will still have these problems. no we should not turn a blind eye but because these problems are always happening, might be another reason why people don't seem to "care" they figure a criminal is a criminal is a criminal.
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