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Old 08-30-2006, 06:48 PM
 
Location: huatulco, oaxaca, mexico
231 posts, read 463,918 times
Reputation: 43

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Still trying to understand topic number 2, but I don`t agree that Mexico and the US started out on an equal playing field. The US drew it`s southern border at Tijuana because they knew the rest wasn`t worth much, especially not worth the trouble of "educating and converting", (or just plain ole` slaughtering) the indigenous groups. The lands weren`t as fertile and there wasn`t as much water.

Another difference: Where the US more or less committed genocide on the indigenous groups, practically wiping them off the map, the Spaniards for the most part integrated with the indigenous groups- intermarried and had offspring. This is why the majority of the mexican population is mestizo, or mixed indigenous and Spanish blood; this is why the majority of Mexicans are darker-skinned (this isn`t to say the indigenous groups weren`t brutalized, raped, enslaved, and murdered too, but the indigenous of Mexico weren`t completely annihilated like in the states).

I`m surprised Fast Film, you seem pretty much up on history- how could you think that the US and Mexico started off on a level playing field? Since it`s beginning all the settlers and immigrants set their sights on the United States. No one really cared about Mexico, until some interesting territory was under their control for those few years that you mentioned earlier.
My guess is that it was the fertility of the lands and the maybe the climate, maybe because that was the in-place, and still is. Point is, no one ever really wanted to go to Mexico because it has never been on the same level as the US, not 500 years ago and not today.

Personal note: If I had been a European immigrant back in those days, I would`ve chosen Mex, just like I did in this day and age (but I like being poor)! I thank God that Oaxaca, at least, is nothing like California. I`m coming back in a few months though (I guess I don`t being poor all that much after all).
Fast Film- we butt heads in our comments and beliefs, but I respect you because you are very strong in your opinions, and you always give me something to mull over, and usually grumble about. But if there were one post I look forward to reading, it`d probably be yours.
Looking forward to being word-pounded tomorrow.....
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:34 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,018,519 times
Reputation: 1788
El Dorado... the City of Gold... the Fountain of Youth...even The Northwest Passage... the shortcut to the Far East. I've expressed how the explorers of past centuries would have thought. Just because the impetus of their greed was imaginary/nonexistent doesn't diminish the fervant thrust of their quests, which to them were as important as new colonies, new trade items and new souls to convert. That's how one concludes the initial importance of both North and Central/South America seen with equal emphasis, and as an even starting point in colonial history.

Thank you both for the compliments. I like intelligent discourse, particularly since where I live in Los Angeles does not feature residents with whom I can engage in same. They speak all sorts of assorted languages other than English, and most only care about the latest telenovela, dredging up their home country's grievances, and their dislike of all American ways of doing things, be it cultural or legal. As you can read from the aforementioned, I've tried. Geopolitics and modern sociology would never come up any more than would the common American cultural references of the rest of this nation. I miss America, living in Los Angeles.

Last edited by fastfilm; 08-30-2006 at 07:43 PM..
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:46 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,018,519 times
Reputation: 1788
What do some of the rest of city-data posters think of the two conclusions of post #80 as well?
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Perth, Western Australia
9,595 posts, read 22,898,648 times
Reputation: 3478
Post 80 was interesting...

I think part of the reason more people wanted to move to the U.S. is 100-150 years ago the British Empire controlled much of the world, so a lot of goods, businesses etc. used the English language. I've heard by the mid 1800's the U.S. was on reasonable terms with England again.

Jobs and languages aside, I generally would probably find Mexico more attractive than most parts of the U.S.

Why else are there tens or hundreds of thousands of Canadians and possibly millions of Americans visit it annually? Many parts of Mexico have what most tourists consider fanatastic weather year-round while most places in Canada have at best undesirable weather most of the year. I also love the ocean but prefer to swim, surf or dive in warm water. The southern half of both coasts; the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific I hear are pretty warm. I also love Mexican food and hot sauces.
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:38 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,018,519 times
Reputation: 1788
ColdCanadian, I'm old enough to have had male friends moving to Canada in the 1960's to avoid the Vietnam War conscription. Post-war, they happily stayed, leading me to believe your country has some valid quality of life benefits. As this thread began on immigration, why do you think your county, also one colonized 500+ years ago by Europeans, is a successful modern country and desirable (despite the cold clime) to people moving there to this day?
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Western Bexar County
3,823 posts, read 13,134,961 times
Reputation: 1895
Default Spanish Conquests

Quote:
Originally Posted by gringo istmeño View Post
...Where the US more or less committed genocide on the indigenous groups, practically wiping them off the map, the Spaniards for the most part integrated with the indigenous groups- intermarried and had offspring. This is why the majority of the mexican population is mestizo, or mixed indigenous and Spanish blood; this is why the majority of Mexicans are darker-skinned (this isn`t to say the indigenous groups weren`t brutalized, raped, enslaved, and murdered too, but the indigenous of Mexico weren`t completely annihilated like in the states)...
I don't believe that the Spaniards colonized Mexico to "integrate" with the indigenous groups. They wanted Mexico's gold and labor, and to add more territory to their spreading empire as they invaded north and south of Mexico (as well as the Philippines). Just like Americans, they killed many of the indigenous groups (though disease from the Spaniards killed many more). I also believe that most of the darker-skinned Mexicans actually have more local Indian blood than Spanish blood as most of the Spaniards that came to Mexico were Caucasian. As seen in the past, and today, most armies just want sexual relief and not to integrate.

Last edited by Yac; 08-31-2006 at 01:58 PM.. Reason: quote fixed
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:02 PM
 
Location: FL
1,318 posts, read 5,301,728 times
Reputation: 910
Hey ColdCanadian & mr gringo-I have a GREAT IDEA!!! Mr gringo can bring ALL his Mexican buddies up to CANADA!!!!!!! YOU guys can pay for their healthcare, let them vote in your elections, give them drivers liscenses! Also, Canada can start printing everything in English, French, AND Spanish!!!!! I'm just so excited about this! I'm sure your fellow Canadians will LOVE the influx of illegals!!!!!! And all the Mexicans can have a whole new country to invade!!!!!!! This is just so perfect!!!!!! Now why didn't anyone ELSE think of that???
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:58 PM
 
9,716 posts, read 12,940,289 times
Reputation: 3315
Has anyone said anything about the huge gap between the rich and the poor in Mexico? It seems to me that the USA has been taking a few pages from their economic playbook the last few years with the considerable increase in wealth for the very richest in this country.
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Old 08-31-2006, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Denver
692 posts, read 2,372,295 times
Reputation: 364
It's way to easy to trash Mexicans. Many who make it far exceed average
contributions to our society, while many many natural born Americans
abuse the system. Lets face it, too many in this country are just plain LAZY.
Think about the ones who really benefit from illegal labor. They push a
few of our buttons and we vote them right back in.
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:02 AM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,018,519 times
Reputation: 1788
UB50, there's a totally simple answer to that observation that is definitely on topic to this thread. Illegal immigration feeds the disparity between rich and poor here in the U.S., and the increase in the latter, by taxing the middle class into the latter category to pay for increased services to illegals that middle classes themselves cannot qualify for.

By living in California, I pay roughly 50% of all my income monies in taxes, albeit combined with Federal, State, and Local Property taxes, according to my accoutant. I earn less than 30K a year.

When economists, sociologists and regular citizens posting on this board observe that, say, southern California is more and more resembling the third world, this is not a racial or cultural slur; rather, it gets to the heart of what UB50 wrote. Los Angeles now more resembles a third world country rather than an American city because of the now massive divide between rich and poor with concomitant reduction of the middle class. The latest statistics, which I quoted somewhere on the Los Angeles thread, were, I believe: Los Angeles now has only 30+% middle class, with 15% rich and the remainder poor, as opposed to the American average for large cities, which was more like 50% middle class, etc.
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