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Old 10-17-2010, 07:11 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,156,932 times
Reputation: 2130

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Please stay on topic, and what do you mean "if" that were true? Somebody who understands my proposal regarding a change to the I-9 form to be more compatible with E-verify, please speak up!
Stay on topic? You're the one that called a certain segment of the forum members in here "hate mongers". Wasn't that off topic? Now I ask why and what does that have to do with the topic of e-verify? I think an apology is warrented.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:38 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,296,447 times
I have to chip in here, though I don't doubt this will brand me as something, as apparently it's impossible to make a statement without being a part of a bigger "pro" or "anti" group.
When talking about insults and hate mongering, without pointing fingers to anyone, all I have to say is that people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We've had enough of pointlessly controversial posts, broad statements and accusations in this forum. From both sides. This "hate mongering" is no worse than what I read in other threads here.
So please, for once, in the name of all that's holy, instead of nitpicking and focusing on the unimportant part of the post, discuss the issue. "Defeat" your "opponent" using arguments, battle his ideas not him personally.
Yac.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,259,877 times
Reputation: 2526
My whole point in all of this is my disappointment that when I actually come up with something that may better help prevent employers from unknowingly hiring illegal immigrants and when I ask for some feedback on it all I hear is crickets chirp....yet people on here are constantly saying we need to punish employers for providing employment to people who aren't legally authorized to be here. Well, my thought process on that is that once the government puts checks and tools into place that employers can use to prevent this from happening then they can better hold them accountable to it later.

The problem with the current system is that many illegal immigrants are able to get employment with false or stolen ID documents. My whole point is that this is something that can be corrected and I think it is worth discussing. So please put aside any other argument I've brought up in any other topic and let's focus on the proposal I've made or what other potential things could be done to prevent people from getting work who shouldn't be.
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,088,876 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
My whole point in all of this is my disappointment that when I actually come up with something that may better help prevent employers from unknowingly hiring illegal immigrants and when I ask for some feedback on it all I hear is crickets chirp....yet people on here are constantly saying we need to punish employers for providing employment to people who aren't legally authorized to be here. Well, my thought process on that is that once the government puts checks and tools into place that employers can use to prevent this from happening then they can better hold them accountable to it later.

The problem with the current system is that many illegal immigrants are able to get employment with false or stolen ID documents. My whole point is that this is something that can be corrected and I think it is worth discussing. So please put aside any other argument I've brought up in any other topic and let's focus on the proposal I've made or what other potential things could be done to prevent people from getting work who shouldn't be.
I dont think a burden should be placed on the employer, especial the small business owner, to be an immigration offical...that takes time(his) and money(administrative).

Its shouldn't be up to the employer to check the authenticity of a new hire's documents. E-verify is a tool, but it is not the "be-all" answer. The scantions should be for employers that knowingly hire illegals without any documentation...not even good fake ones.

E-verify is in place to catch the employees that use made-up or stolen SSNs and other documents. whether an I-9 has a photo or not is really not an improvement( a step foward) in the system. Increased usage and universality in the system are far more important "tweeks".
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,955,353 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
My whole point in all of this is my disappointment that when I actually come up with something that may better help prevent employers from unknowingly hiring illegal immigrants and when I ask for some feedback on it all I hear is crickets chirp....yet people on here are constantly saying we need to punish employers for providing employment to people who aren't legally authorized to be here. Well, my thought process on that is that once the government puts checks and tools into place that employers can use to prevent this from happening then they can better hold them accountable to it later.

The problem with the current system is that many illegal immigrants are able to get employment with false or stolen ID documents. My whole point is that this is something that can be corrected and I think it is worth discussing. So please put aside any other argument I've brought up in any other topic and let's focus on the proposal I've made or what other potential things could be done to prevent people from getting work who shouldn't be.
I don't see any issue with what you've suggested, but I also don't see it being implemented anytime soon. Perhaps you can suggest a reason why those in power don't seem to want to expand the e-verify/I-9 system as you've suggested.

As a LEGAL immigrant I would have no problem supplying the expanded requirements and in fact, as I've stated in prior posts, done so rather than having a pointless argument about it when I've been hired with people that don't seem to be able to read the instructions.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:32 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,695 times
Reputation: 11
E-Verify was originally created as a means to catch those who created identities or assume other people's SSNs as their own. E-Verify performs very well in these situations and where it doesn't, it's usually because the SSA has incorrect data.

The biggest issue facing E-Verify today is identity fraud and there's little short of implementing a comprehensive biometrics solution that will solve the problem. It's like a leaking levee. Whatever holes you plug, the water just finds the weakest point.

Regarding the original poster's proposal, it seems that the poster's issue is that many of the existing List B documents are too easy to fake and can't be checked through E-Verify.

It's true that all List A documents are checked through E-Verify as most of them are DHS documents and DHS has access to its own data. US passports were recently added so that's checked too.

List C documents are less of an issue. All SSNs are checked through E-Verify so a fake SSN card is easily identified by the system. Birth certificates are easy to fake, but List C isn't for proving identity and E-Verify is still checking the SSN regardless of whether the employee submits a SSN card.

So List B is the problem. DHS has said they are working on proposed changes to the Form I-9 and they've previously expressed interest in removing documents from List B though public comment and politics has limited their ability in the past.

Drivers licenses are the biggest problem because there's no single standard and they're the most common document presented. DHS announced a few weeks ago their intention to start verifying drivers license data with state DMVs. Assuming they can get most states on board, that will help with some identity fraud, but not all.

Also watch for what happens with Real ID. It'll be interesting to see if DHS drops noncompliant licenses from List B.

While these help, it does nothing to address the problem of when someone assumes the identify of someone else (name, birthdate, SSN, etc.). Currently, that can only be caught during the I-9 process when the employer looks at the documents to see if they are legitimate for the individual presenting them.

Scaling back the list of acceptable documents does nothing to stop that and that is one of the biggest methods of getting around the system in place. Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions to fix it.

One point about so-called secure documents. You have to consider the source documents Take for example, the passport. It's relatively easy to get a passport because birth certificates are easy to fake. For ID purposes, the State Department accepts drivers licenses, ID's even credit cards in some cases. So you can eliminate drivers licenses and other List B documents from the Form I-9, but if you can still use them to get a passport and the passports is acceptable for Form I-9, you still have a problem. It may require more effort to circumvent, but illegal immigrants who want jobs will do it.

As for the E-Verify photo tool, it's of limited benefit. It only catches document fraud, specifically photo substitution, which is not as big of an issue as identity theft. It's more of a gimmick than anything but I guess it's better than nothing.
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:30 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,075,350 times
Reputation: 17698
When a employer receives a no match letter, yet doesn't contact the agency if believed false, they should still be held accountable. From the articles of what has been going on with no match it's pretty obvious employers have been playing dumb and ignoring them.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:05 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,088,876 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
When a employer receives a no match letter, yet doesn't contact the agency if believed false, they should still be held accountable. From the articles of what has been going on with no match it's pretty obvious employers have been playing dumb and ignoring them.
Under E-verify, it is not up to the employer to make the "false" documents determination...That is done by the issuing agencies.
The employer cannot keep the employee if a Tentative Nonconformation is issued and the employee does not contest the TNC rulling.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,259,877 times
Reputation: 2526
Quote:
Originally Posted by a6sh3h276 View Post
As for the E-Verify photo tool, it's of limited benefit. It only catches document fraud, specifically photo substitution, which is not as big of an issue as identity theft. It's more of a gimmick than anything but I guess it's better than nothing.
My whole argument for the photo tool is that beyond photo substitution, which this tool will catch, how else would a stolen ID work because it should be fairly obvious to the hiring manager that the photo on the stolen ID wouldn't match the applicant (since it obviously would be somebody else in the photo).
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:58 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,075,350 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Under E-verify, it is not up to the employer to make the "false" documents determination...That is done by the issuing agencies.
The employer cannot keep the employee if a Tentative Nonconformation is issued and the employee does not contest the TNC rulling.
How did Whitman get around her notification for her illegal? I don't know, I'm just asking. It must not be hard to avoid currently or employers are ignoring it.
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