U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-02-2010, 09:15 AM
 
320 posts, read 245,632 times
Reputation: 137

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Still repeating this same old nonsense even though there are numerous topics and posts whereby the employers have been held guilty by all of us? I don't know in how many topics we have talked endlessly about e-verify and that we want the employers caught, jailed and fined. Oh well, I guess you will just continue to see and read what you want regardless of what is posted.

Actually, I hold our government the most guilty. If they had secured our borders and made e-verify mandated in all workplaces, denied benefits to illegal aliens and changed birthright citizenship we wouldn't have to worry about either the employers or the illegal aliens. There would be very little illegal immigration. Otherwise I hold the employers and the illegals the second most guilty, equally.
There's a HUGE world outside of the internet my friend. The world doesn't revolve around the forums here. I've already said I'm talking about a large fraction of the the ignorant people emberassing the anti-illegal crowd. If I was insulting the small intelligent minority who see the cause of illegal-immigration for what it is I'd be insulting myself.

You've already told me that you hold employers and politicians accountable. Hats off to you. I'm glad you got a good head on your shoulders. So why get bent out of shape when I agree with someone who agrees with us about punishing these snakes who employ these illegals?


For the last time. If any of you feel employers should be held accountable and are as much if not more to blame for this problem then MY POSTS ARE NOT DIRECTED AT YOU. I am talking about the politicians who pretend to be anti-illegal immigration but have no intention of addressing the problem. I am talking about the closet racist who uses the illegal-immigration debate to spew their ignorance. And most of all I am talking about the people too stupid to think for themselves and let talking heads and pundits control their every thought. Once again. If this is not you then you have no reason to respond.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-02-2010, 09:38 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domination83 View Post
There's a HUGE world outside of the internet my friend. The world doesn't revolve around the forums here. I've already said I'm talking about a large fraction of the the ignorant people emberassing the anti-illegal crowd. If I was insulting the small intelligent minority who see the cause of illegal-immigration for what it is I'd be insulting myself.

You've already told me that you hold employers and politicians accountable. Hats off to you. I'm glad you got a good head on your shoulders. So why get bent out of shape when I agree with someone who agrees with us about punishing these snakes who employ these illegals?


For the last time. If any of you feel employers should be held accountable and are as much if not more to blame for this problem then MY POSTS ARE NOT DIRECTED AT YOU. I am talking about the politicians who pretend to be anti-illegal immigration but have no intention of addressing the problem. I am talking about the closet racist who uses the illegal-immigration debate to spew their ignorance. And most of all I am talking about the people too stupid to think for themselves and let talking heads and pundits control their every thought. Once again. If this is not you then you have no reason to respond.
While we pretty much agree I am vastly more skeptical than you that the employment problem is addressable in any big way. Yes if you find someone running a meat packing plant with illegals you may well be able to nail them. But is that significant at this point in the process? I don't think so.

Basically what we are doing is forcing the illegal from the conventional payroll to the black side. Last numbers I saw said roughly half the illegals are now off the books and that was a while ago.

And off the books works very well in the building trades, landscaping, restaurants and any number of other fields.

So I don't think there is actually any way to limit illegal employment by enforcement against the employer...you simply force the illegal to the black side.

It again is one of the reasons that I think we must regularize the status of those who are here. The problem is simply too big to be dealt with. The gov might be able to track and run down a few hundred thousand illegals and their employers. But ten million?...not in our life time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 10:49 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domination83 View Post
There's a HUGE world outside of the internet my friend. The world doesn't revolve around the forums here. I've already said I'm talking about a large fraction of the the ignorant people emberassing the anti-illegal crowd. If I was insulting the small intelligent minority who see the cause of illegal-immigration for what it is I'd be insulting myself.

You've already told me that you hold employers and politicians accountable. Hats off to you. I'm glad you got a good head on your shoulders. So why get bent out of shape when I agree with someone who agrees with us about punishing these snakes who employ these illegals?


For the last time. If any of you feel employers should be held accountable and are as much if not more to blame for this problem then MY POSTS ARE NOT DIRECTED AT YOU. I am talking about the politicians who pretend to be anti-illegal immigration but have no intention of addressing the problem. I am talking about the closet racist who uses the illegal-immigration debate to spew their ignorance. And most of all I am talking about the people too stupid to think for themselves and let talking heads and pundits control their every thought. Once again. If this is not you then you have no reason to respond.
Outside of this forum the guilt on the part of the employers are discussed. Most politicians who want illegal immigraton stopped do advocate for e-verify. There is no "large" group of ignorant people embarrasing the majority of anti-illegals. You are talking about extremists and there are extremists on both sides of this issue. Fortunately they are the minority. How can a minority embarrass the majority?

As I said, under another topic the politicans who want illegal immigration stopped do address the employers by advocating e-verify and they do want the employers punished. Which politicians who oppose illegal immigration are you speaking of that have no intention of addressing the problem?

Again, the race card does not belong in this discussion. The vast majority of anti-illegals are not closet racists so why are bent out of shape over a small minority that may be? There is a small number of racists on both sides of this issue but you only want to address those on the anti-illegal side?

Yes, I do have reason to respond even though you say your remarks aren't directed at me. We anti-illegals are tired of hearing those same old nasty labels put on us as a whole. Those who do that need to stop it altogether because those labels do not fit the majority and why concern yourself about the minority anyway?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
While we pretty much agree I am vastly more skeptical than you that the employment problem is addressable in any big way. Yes if you find someone running a meat packing plant with illegals you may well be able to nail them. But is that significant at this point in the process? I don't think so.

Basically what we are doing is forcing the illegal from the conventional payroll to the black side. Last numbers I saw said roughly half the illegals are now off the books and that was a while ago.

And off the books works very well in the building trades, landscaping, restaurants and any number of other fields.

So I don't think there is actually any way to limit illegal employment by enforcement against the employer...you simply force the illegal to the black side.

It again is one of the reasons that I think we must regularize the status of those who are here. The problem is simply too big to be dealt with. The gov might be able to track and run down a few hundred thousand illegals and their employers. But ten million?...not in our life time.
In other words, due to their massive numbers, we should simply wave the white flag, and allow our country to be subjugated by foreign interlopers. We should send a message to the world that the powerful USA is willing to relinquish the rule of law, and its sovereignty. No thanks.

We have tried amnesty in the past, and it failed miserably. Why on earth would we even consider another? How would THIS amnesty differ? No, we need to secure our borders and severely punish both employers and illegals. We also must remove all pro-illegal politicians from office.

We must make this country unbearable for illegal aliens; and too costly for any company to consider violating our laws. All companies guilty of employing illegals should be assessed multi-million dollar fines, and the owners a mandatory 10-year prison sentence without the possibility of parole. They should also forfeit all ill-gotten assets. Citizens and homeowners found guilty of knowingly employing illegals should also face stiff penalties, including jail.

Illegals should be denied ALL benefits. It should be a requirement that both parents must have legal status for their household to qualify for WIC, welfare, subsidized housing, food stamps, etc. We should also require proof of legal status for utilities, to rent housing, purchase a car, and to open a bank account. They will never leave as long as they are coddled. We must send a resounding message that illegal immigration will no longer be tolerated in our country. We CAN rid our country of illegal aliens.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, due to their massive numbers, we should simply wave the white flag, and allow our country to be subjugated by foreign interlopers. We should send a message to the world that the powerful USA is willing to relinquish the rule of law, and its sovereignty. No thanks.
YOu keep acting like you have real options. You don't. There is no will in the country to spend hundreds of billions of dollars when a law change fixes the problem. And it is worse than just spending the billions. You establish a new massive federal infrastructure. How are you going to make it go away? They never do. Why would this one be different?

Quote:
We have tried amnesty in the past, and it failed miserably. Why on earth would we even consider another? How would THIS amnesty differ? No, we need to secure our borders and severely punish both employers and illegals. We also must remove all pro-illegal politicians from office.
True. and it could happen again. That would at worst leave us where we are with no one left in Mexico to come over. That is a way to win.

Or we could try and do it right. I think those that believe you can win this with walls are out of their tree. The walls cannot be made strong enough without things we are unwilling to do. We are not going to bulldoze a half mile swath across San Diego for instance. We are not going to build islands and walls down the middle of the Rio Grande.

So you have got to have a fiercely aggresive force driving the system. And there is no other way to do it. The country will not accept the cash controls or ID cards needed to implement any other way. And eVerify is completely uneffective against the black market.

But if you have such a force you want it as small as possible. It is still risky...the kind of thing that turns into a brown shirt group. So you need to get the problem small to start.


Quote:
We must make this country unbearable for illegal aliens; and too costly for any company to consider violating our laws. All companies guilty of employing illegals should be assessed multi-million dollar fines, and the owners a mandatory 10-year prison sentence without the possibility of parole. They should also forfeit all ill-gotten assets. Citizens and homeowners found guilty of knowingly employing illegals should also face stiff penalties, including jail.
There is no way to do that. They are integrated with a portion of our regular population that provides support. Virtually anything you try will cause a reaction, maybe even a correct one, from the non-illegals involved.

Knowingly is the term that guarantees none of this will work. Nobody ever does anything "knowingly". I may suspect that my gardener or the brother that sometimes accompanies him is illegal...but I do not know it.

YOu could of course remove "knowingly"...but are your really ready to go to jail if you buy a sandwich from a MacDonald that has an illegal employee? Really? How about sending your kid to reform school if they buy a candy bar from another kid who turns out to be illegal.

Quote:
Illegals should be denied ALL benefits. It should be a requirement that both parents must have legal status for their household to qualify for WIC, welfare, subsidized housing, food stamps, etc. We should also require proof of legal status for utilities, to rent housing, purchase a car, and to open a bank account. They will never leave as long as they are coddled. We must send a resounding message that illegal immigration will no longer be tolerated in our country. We CAN rid our country of illegal aliens.
All benefits except emergency medical are denied to illegals. Illegals also happen to be residents and pay sales tax. There is no reasonable way I am going to allow a car dealer or utility to proble into my citizenship...and by the way there is no real way for them to verify it...we do not require or allow a universal ID card. It is an American tradition.

We will never rid our country of illegal aliens. The only way would be to allow no aliens in...because an alien can turn illegal. What we need to do is control the illegal population and limit it to a small number and keep it there. Which is quite impossible from the existing base.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
YOu keep acting like you have real options. You don't. There is no will in the country to spend hundreds of billions of dollars when a law change fixes the problem. And it is worse than just spending the billions. You establish a new massive federal infrastructure. How are you going to make it go away? They never do. Why would this one be different? .
This is OUR country, so yes, we do have options. Are you suggesting we have absolutely no control over who we permit to remain here, or what removal measures we take? You can’t be serious. Please explain why we would need to spend billions, when all we need to do is enforce our existing laws? We didn’t pay for illegals to come, and we don’t need to pay for them to leave.

What reform will fix the problem? We already have laws that are not being enforced. Why would you believe new laws would be different? Remember, we were promised in 1986 there would never be another amnesty, and that our laws would be enforced, and our borders would be secured. We know how well that worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
True. and it could happen again. That would at worst leave us where we are with no one left in Mexico to come over. That is a way to win. .
How on earth will we “win” if we allow every illiterate and low-skilled Mexican to live in this country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Or we could try and do it right. I think those that believe you can win this with walls are out of their tree. The walls cannot be made strong enough without things we are unwilling to do. We are not going to bulldoze a half mile swath across San Diego for instance. We are not going to build islands and walls down the middle of the Rio Grande. .
Do it right? As in grant another disastrous amnesty? I’m sure you know the definition of insanity.

We don’t need a wall. If we stringently enforce all of our laws, we wouldn’t even need a large border patrol, because there would be no reason to come. However, we do need to change the rules of engagement. There’s a reason people don’t often attempt to enter countries such as Iran and N. Korea. We need to instill fear in illegal border crossers. If it requires installing electrified fences, alligator-filled moats, or land mines, so be it. We have a right to defend our borders against foreign invasions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
So you have got to have a fiercely aggresive force driving the system. And there is no other way to do it. The country will not accept the cash controls or ID cards needed to implement any other way. And eVerify is completely uneffective against the black market. .
If a national ID is required, so be it. We must do whatever it takes to ensure illegal aliens cannot live or work in this country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
But if you have such a force you want it as small as possible. It is still risky...the kind of thing that turns into a brown shirt group. So you need to get the problem small to start. .
If our government continues to refuse to enforce our laws, citizens will be forced to take action. Our brave soldiers did not fight and die for this country to have it subjugated by illegals. They need to fix their own countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
There is no way to do that. They are integrated with a portion of our regular population that provides support. Virtually anything you try will cause a reaction, maybe even a correct one, from the non-illegals involved. .
Irrelevant. If they are here illegally, they have no right to remain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Knowingly is the term that guarantees none of this will work. Nobody ever does anything "knowingly". I may suspect that my gardener or the brother that sometimes accompanies him is illegal...but I do not know it.

YOu could of course remove "knowingly"...but are your really ready to go to jail if you buy a sandwich from a MacDonald that has an illegal employee? Really? How about sending your kid to reform school if they buy a candy bar from another kid who turns out to be illegal. .
It can easily be proven whether an employer or individual “knowingly” hires illegals. We can also prohibit day laborers from soliciting work. It is not the responsibility of customers of restaurants, stores, hotels, etc. to determine the employment eligibility of employees. That is the legal obligation of the employer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
All benefits except emergency medical are denied to illegals. Illegals also happen to be residents and pay sales tax. There is no reasonable way I am going to allow a car dealer or utility to proble into my citizenship...and by the way there is no real way for them to verify it...we do not require or allow a universal ID card. It is an American tradition. .
Sales tax? Do you think sales taxes can cover the astronomical costs of a K-12 education, ESL classes, breakfast/lunch programs, and myriad other benefits illegal aliens receive? Surely you jest.

When did I mention citizenship? I said legal status. And yes, we can require a legal presence to receive services. Don’t most states require proof of legal status for a driver’s license? I don’t know about you, but each time I have bought a car, I had to provide my SSN for a credit report. They also required proof of income. Don’t they probe for that info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
We will never rid our country of illegal aliens. The only way would be to allow no aliens in...because an alien can turn illegal. What we need to do is control the illegal population and limit it to a small number and keep it there. Which is quite impossible from the existing base.
Sorry, but illegals will not be amnestied. If they’re smart, they will start packing their bags. The party’s over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 06:31 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This is OUR country, so yes, we do have options. Are you suggesting we have absolutely no control over who we permit to remain here, or what removal measures we take? You canít be serious. Please explain why we would need to spend billions, when all we need to do is enforce our existing laws? We didnít pay for illegals to come, and we donít need to pay for them to leave.

What reform will fix the problem? We already have laws that are not being enforced. Why would you believe new laws would be different? Remember, we were promised in 1986 there would never be another amnesty, and that our laws would be enforced, and our borders would be secured. We know how well that worked.



How on earth will we ďwinĒ if we allow every illiterate and low-skilled Mexican to live in this country?



Do it right? As in grant another disastrous amnesty? Iím sure you know the definition of insanity.

We donít need a wall. If we stringently enforce all of our laws, we wouldnít even need a large border patrol, because there would be no reason to come. However, we do need to change the rules of engagement. Thereís a reason people donít often attempt to enter countries such as Iran and N. Korea. We need to instill fear in illegal border crossers. If it requires installing electrified fences, alligator-filled moats, or land mines, so be it. We have a right to defend our borders against foreign invasions.



If a national ID is required, so be it. We must do whatever it takes to ensure illegal aliens cannot live or work in this country.




If our government continues to refuse to enforce our laws, citizens will be forced to take action. Our brave soldiers did not fight and die for this country to have it subjugated by illegals. They need to fix their own countries.



Irrelevant. If they are here illegally, they have no right to remain.



It can easily be proven whether an employer or individual ďknowinglyĒ hires illegals. We can also prohibit day laborers from soliciting work. It is not the responsibility of customers of restaurants, stores, hotels, etc. to determine the employment eligibility of employees. That is the legal obligation of the employer.



Sales tax? Do you think sales taxes can cover the astronomical costs of a K-12 education, ESL classes, breakfast/lunch programs, and myriad other benefits illegal aliens receive? Surely you jest.

When did I mention citizenship? I said legal status. And yes, we can require a legal presence to receive services. Donít most states require proof of legal status for a driverís license? I donít know about you, but each time I have bought a car, I had to provide my SSN for a credit report. They also required proof of income. Donít they probe for that info?



Sorry, but illegals will not be amnestied. If theyíre smart, they will start packing their bags. The partyís over.
If this is among your real requirements for America you should consider a move to Canada. You can be a citizen there in less than ten years. Your expectations are not about to be met in the USofA. And if you want a country without illegals...Canada is your best bet...and the illegals there will be mainly Americans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
If this is among your real requirements for America you should consider a move to Canada. You can be a citizen there in less than ten years. Your expectations are not about to be met in the USofA. And if you want a country without illegals...Canada is your best bet...and the illegals there will be mainly Americans.
In other words, unless I embrace illegal immigration as a way of life, or accept their legalization, I, a citizen of this country, should move? Do I understand you correctly? Sorry, no can do.

If anyone leaves, it will be illegals and their delusional supporters. However, thanks for the laugh.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2010, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Kamloops, BC
229 posts, read 573,764 times
Reputation: 95
Don't kick them out of the country (they will take american money with them). I say kill them all and take their money, then cut taxes. Oh course I am just kidding, but I'm sure there are some people out there that wouldn't be so opposed to this (which I find frightening).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 02:07 AM
 
320 posts, read 245,632 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Outside of this forum the guilt on the part of the employers are discussed. Most politicians who want illegal immigraton stopped do advocate for e-verify. There is no "large" group of ignorant people embarrasing the majority of anti-illegals. You are talking about extremists and there are extremists on both sides of this issue. Fortunately they are the minority. How can a minority embarrass the majority?
I never hear politicians on CNN expressing their outrage over employers. You always hear them ranting and raving about the illegals though. Lou Dobbs was the only one I've heard mention employers and he's just a host. But even 90% of his stuff was just bashing illegal immigrants.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
As I said, under another topic the politicans who want illegal immigration stopped do address the employers by advocating e-verify and they do want the employers punished. Which politicians who oppose illegal immigration are you speaking of that have no intention of addressing the problem?
Pretty much every one that opens their mouth about the subject.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Again, the race card does not belong in this discussion. The vast majority of anti-illegals are not closet racists so why are bent out of shape over a small minority that may be? There is a small number of racists on both sides of this issue but you only want to address those on the anti-illegal side?
Cause they're the ones who make me look bad.

I could care less about the other side. Their "Let's let everyone in" stance is just as ridiculous as the people who put the illegal-immigration problem on the illegal-immigrants alone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Yes, I do have reason to respond even though you say your remarks aren't directed at me. We anti-illegals are tired of hearing those same old nasty labels put on us as a whole. Those who do that need to stop it altogether because those labels do not fit the majority and why concern yourself about the minority anyway?
And when did I put it on us as a whole? I'm anti-illegal. Would be pretty stupid to be insulting myself. But like I said every time I turn on the news, read blogs etc. It's always people crying and complaining about illegal-immigrants. Rarely do I hear a thing about the employers. These people just repeat what their politicians and talk show hosts tell them. Most are in no position to think for themselves. The fact that you keep trying to debate me when I even said in the same post that I'm not talking about people that want to hold everyone involved accountable seems sort of odd......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top