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Old 10-27-2010, 06:55 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,502,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The second largest industry used to be construction. No more. And it is highly hispanic and has been for some years. And yeah there are likely some illegals...as there are in virtually all areas of work in the SW.

I would think the hispanics can sort out who gets the jobs.

I note you have now given up on any real arguments and have gone for the personal attack. What has RE or what I do got to do with anything.

You guys are even bad losers. No wonder you sit around and complain about the hispanics. You need justification for your own lack of success.
If there are only "some" illegals in construction jobs then why is Spanish a requirement to get hired? Most Hispanic citizens are bi-lingual. They know how to speak English.

You accuse the poster you were replying to of personal attacks when right here in this post you have done the same thing.

Why would you assume that we oppose illegal immigration due to our own lack of success? A person can't be for the rule of law, fair and lawful hiring practices and secure borders unless they are a failure in life? No, we don't sit around and complain about Hispanics. We are complaining about illegal immigration. The fact that most illegals are Hispanics isn't our fault.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 16,216,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The second largest industry used to be construction. No more. And it is highly hispanic and has been for some years. And yeah there are likely some illegals...as there are in virtually all areas of work in the SW.

I would think the hispanics can sort out who gets the jobs.

I note you have now given up on any real arguments and have gone for the personal attack. What has RE or what I do got to do with anything.

You guys are even bad losers. No wonder you sit around and complain about the hispanics. You need justification for your own lack of success.
Of course, you’re right. We couldn’t possibly have legitimate reasons for opposing ILLEGAL immigration. The astronomical tax burden, the displacement of legal workers, the depression of wages, the countless victims of violent crimes, our national security, to name a few, couldn’t possibly be the impetus. No, only the “unsuccessful” oppose illegal immigration. I’ll have to remember to add that to the litany of laughable pro-illegal accusations.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:41 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,502,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Of course, you’re right. We couldn’t possibly have legitimate reasons for opposing ILLEGAL immigration. The astronomical tax burden, the displacement of legal workers, the depression of wages, the countless victims of violent crimes, our national security, to name a few, couldn’t possibly be the impetus. No, only the “unsuccessful” oppose illegal immigration. I’ll have to remember to add that to the litany of laughable pro-illegal accusations.
I've heard that same idiotic accusation from the pro-illegals before. It is amazing how many tricks they have in their bag of demonizations of law abiding Americans to justify their own anti-American views.

I worked for 45 years and managed to save for a comfortable retirement. I wouldn't call that being unsuccessful. Even so I can sympathize with my fellow Americans who are still working at depressed wages today or out of a job due in part to the influx of cheap, illegal labor. They can't succeed in that environment.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,350,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman82 View Post
Like I said before, not very interesting. The poll was about a "Path to citizenship", and in no way means California will not support the Federal government in enforcing the laws, or that Californians embrace the flood of illegal immigrants.

Quote:
As I stated before: "The grammar police would have arrested you several times already, I would not cast stones. We all understand people make mistakes posting on here, the only thing that matters is the message they are trying to convey."
You obviously can't differentiate between spelling and grammar. As I said I type fast and frequently make minor errors.


Quote:
You are missing the entire point. "The families ALL directly benefit from this, from the illegal parents to the legal children, as a family unit, therefore it should be counted." What is the key word here? family unit.. a household that shares resources, and since the parents are directly accountable for the welfare of their minor children then naturally the families economic impact should be counted. Really nice try, you should think about becoming a politician.
You can make the same argument about Grandma or Auntie or even a good friend. The number is used because there is no other. Simple.


Quote:
I seriously doubt you have read any report on this issue, besides articles from the L.A. Times. I would suggest you search my name, check out some of the many links I have already provided on this site, then explain why they are not credible.
List your credentials that qualify you as an expert in the field. But if you wish feel free to examine my postings. I have listed the various studies in the past.

Quote:
You cannot honestly believe that. The collision repair industry was once full of skilled, well paid American craftsmen. Over time these trades were taken over by illegal immigrants with horrible standards, depressing wages and driving Americans out of that labor market. I know this issue very personally, I hire the technicians that work on your vehicle when it's damaged. This same scenario plays out over many industries in America, there is no question about it.
I don't know that industry to any degree other than it is quite clearly run by caucasians here. But I have not talked to the techs.

I do know the local residental housing industry. Certain trades are hispanic. Roofers, wall board, stucco, concrete are virtually completely hispanic. Even the subcontractors. And it has pretty much been that way for 25 years. In general not illegals though there are obviously some. Even the gringo contractors all speak fluent "construction spanish". I would however describe it as more a war between the unions and the non-union contractors who used the hispanics to force out the union trades. The trades however still fully control heavy construction. The strip is union built. The subdivision are not.

Note that these guys make a reasonable wage. I have in fact had them as clients and they do OK.


Quote:
Please post link, thank you.
U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Flows Are Down Sharply Since Mid-Decade - Pew Hispanic Center


The illegals have little but good impact on crime. Easy to see. Look at the change in crime as the illegal population increases. If you want to get more sophisticated there are lots of data demonstrating that illegals avoid doing anything that gets police contact for the obvious reason.

Quote:
Please post study. I would love to debate you on this point. There is one other thing I would like to point out, if illegal immigrants do not commit crimes for fear of contact with law enforcement, then wouldn't they also not report a crime committed? you forget that there is a direct relationship between social status and crime. By your own admission illegal immigrants are taking low paying jobs in America, putting them below or at the poverty line and into the higher crime rate categories. If you say illegal immigrant communities are safer.. well you are right to a certain point. I would love for you to think about why they are considered safer, who they displaced, and if they are really safe. Give this some serious though and get back to me, we have a lot to discuss on that topic.
Where did I admit that the illegals are taking low paying jobs that put them below the poverty level? I did not and do not believe it is true. In general they work hard and do well above the poverty level as long as work is available. Listening to an apple farmer in Oregon yesterday testify that he only wants hispanics whether legal or illegal as gringos can't or won't do the work. No I don't believe him...but that is the brain set in a lot of fields.

I do agree that illegals are in the lower social stratas and that you need to compare the crime in similar cohorts.


Quote:
Actually there are lots of people in CA who would like to see the problem ended. But the vast majority favor amnesty in some guise. There are some who favor enforecement only but they are a minority. And the population of CA completely dominates the region. If we are talking about the will of the majority..go with CA. To agree with a path to citizenship does not mean Californians do not want enforcement, in July of this year the majority of Californians support Arizona, can you not support enforcement and some path to citizenship? you are confusing the issue....
I am not confused on the issue. The issue is simply that you cannot enforce with 11 million illegals embedded in 40 or 50 million legals. Just impractical. You can round up the criminals and send them back...but that is about as far as it is workable. If you crack down in AZ the illegals disperse to other places particularly where there is work available.

The economy has had a substantial impact and the marginal illegals have headed home. If you could cut off the work you could likely solve the problem...but there does not appear to be a workable way to do that. Even if you heavily enforce against formal employer you simply force the illegals to the black market which accomplishes little good.


Quote:
The floodgates are already open, the issue is stemming the flow. The IRCA in 1986 was supposed to be for a million or so illegal immigrants to be granted amnesty, that number tripled once it was passed. The border was not secured as promised. In a perfect society we could reduce the numbers with citizenship, then deport and make it a serious offense.. but everyone knows history will repeat itself.
Actually they are not. Illegal immigration is probably at a 20 year low. To actually seal the southern border in a reasonably tight manner is likely a 20 year plus job that may not work and may require unacceptable actions. For instance seizing all the land within a half mile of the border at least in populated areas. Wait until we pull that on San Diego.

So you need some solution that does not require a fully sealed border. I would think that means you have to get the Hispanic community to cooperate.


Quote:
Like I said before, not very interesting. The poll was about a "Path to citizenship", and in no way means California will not support the Federal government in enforcing the laws, or that Californians embrace the flood of illegal immigrants.
The poll made it quite clear what the view in CA is. It showed the very strong distinction between the left and right and hispanics and whites. You need a solution that satisfies all those communities. And that is where it gets tough. Enforcement only is not going to work.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:17 PM
 
358 posts, read 342,405 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You obviously can't differentiate between spelling and grammar. As I said I type fast and frequently make minor errors.

Grammar police is a figure of speech, same as a grammar Nazi but reserved for online communication. Missing commas, period before the word And, spelling errors, singular instead of plural (when needed) all qualify the term Grammar Police. We can go around about this issue, but I would rather stick to the topic at hand.



You can make the same argument about Grandma or Auntie or even a good friend. The number is used because there is no other. Simple.

No you cannot. The Aunt and Grandma are not immediate family, and a friend would certainly not count. We are talking about the dependents of illegal aliens, plain and simple. Father, Mother and the minor children make up the family unit and are immediate family, this concept is very simple. I really don't understand why you are having issues comprehending this.


List your credentials that qualify you as an expert in the field. But if you wish feel free to examine my postings. I have listed the various studies in the past.

Lol.. I really enjoy how you constantly deflect, "I have I think read every report on the subject of any credibility. None make it a big deal." You are the expert, correct? I never professed to be, and only asked that you provide studies to back your findings. After wasting my time perusing your posts I could only find a few links of no consequence. Five pages of opinions, please steer me in the correct direction of the studies you have posted.


I don't know that industry to any degree other than it is quite clearly run by caucasians here. But I have not talked to the techs.

Thats nice, but it will be short lived. I live in Los Angeles county and can tell you with all certainty that once an area is overran with illegal immigrants these businesses will be owned by Hispanics who employ nothing but Hispanics.

I do know the local residental housing industry. Certain trades are hispanic. Roofers, wall board, stucco, concrete are virtually completely hispanic. Even the subcontractors. And it has pretty much been that way for 25 years. In general not illegals though there are obviously some. Even the gringo contractors all speak fluent "construction spanish". I would however describe it as more a war between the unions and the non-union contractors who used the hispanics to force out the union trades. The trades however still fully control heavy construction. The strip is union built. The subdivision are not.

Note that these guys make a reasonable wage. I have in fact had them as clients and they do OK.

I agree, all it takes is undercutting the American worker a small amount to worm yourself into the industry. "I general not illegals though" I would like to to look at this graph, it was compiled right before the peak of the housing boom. Illegal Immigrant Workers by Job Type I would have to say there are more than a few illegals working construction jobs.

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Flows Are Down Sharply Since Mid-Decade - Pew Hispanic Center

PEW...lol.. did you read the methods? I'm sure you didn't, so please do and get back to me on that one.


The illegals have little but good impact on crime. Easy to see. Look at the change in crime as the illegal population increases. If you want to get more sophisticated there are lots of data demonstrating that illegals avoid doing anything that gets police contact for the obvious reason.

Avoid anything that gets police contact? like reporting a crime? I asked for data on this, it's very important so I can properly refute your fallacious argument.


Where did I admit that the illegals are taking low paying jobs that put them below the poverty level? I did not and do not believe it is true. In general they work hard and do well above the poverty level as long as work is available. Listening to an apple farmer in Oregon yesterday testify that he only wants hispanics whether legal or illegal as gringos can't or won't do the work. No I don't believe him...but that is the brain set in a lot of fields.

Where did you admit that the illegals are taking low paying jobs that put them below the poverty level?? "As I have said...the high school drop out and the student worker are harmed...but few others." Hmmm... don't know many high school dropouts or student workers making 100k a year.

I do agree that illegals are in the lower social stratas and that you need to compare the crime in similar cohorts.

Absolutely. Why would we want to import poverty? do we not have enough already? and how about the subsequent generations that do no better, coupled with the high birthrates?

I am not confused on the issue. The issue is simply that you cannot enforce with 11 million illegals embedded in 40 or 50 million legals. Just impractical. You can round up the criminals and send them back...but that is about as far as it is workable. If you crack down in AZ the illegals disperse to other places particularly where there is work available.

They were already dispersing to states with work, spreading like a cancer. We need a nationwide crackdown, but if you start in the worst states and they spread out (like Arizona) it's an easier and more gradual impact to the economy, allowing the smaller concentrations of illegals to be deported when caught.

The economy has had a substantial impact and the marginal illegals have headed home. If you could cut off the work you could likely solve the problem...but there does not appear to be a workable way to do that. Even if you heavily enforce against formal employer you simply force the illegals to the black market which accomplishes little good.

Right, thats why E-Verify should become mandatory.


Actually they are not. Illegal immigration is probably at a 20 year low. To actually seal the southern border in a reasonably tight manner is likely a 20 year plus job that may not work and may require unacceptable actions. For instance seizing all the land within a half mile of the border at least in populated areas. Wait until we pull that on San Diego.

Waait a minute. Arizona is having a horrible problem because the border is not secured, California's border is a lot more secure, forcing smugglers east to Arizona. Illegal immigration is not at a 20 year low, not close. America had record numbers of illegal immigrants migrating to the states until the economy crashed. In the current economic state we are seeing less, but not 20 year lows, I would like to see 1970 levels.

So you need some solution that does not require a fully sealed border. I would think that means you have to get the Hispanic community to cooperate.

We both know that will not happen. Not with the ethnocentric, ignorant "LaRaza" types out there. We could start by finishing the fence that was supposed to be done in the 80's, and enforcing current immigration laws. Letting 500,000 illegal immigrants free from custody is not going to fix our problem.



The poll made it quite clear what the view in CA is. It showed the very strong distinction between the left and right and hispanics and whites. You need a solution that satisfies all those communities. And that is where it gets tough. Enforcement only is not going to work.
The poll does not indicate that Californians will in any way block enforcement.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,204,205 times
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman82 View Post
The study was conducted over 40 years time, the participants could not be older than 50 during the initial study. The original participants were immigrants (legal, illegal- not specified) and the subsequent 4 generations that are American. The study was conducted to determine the success and assimilation of Mexicans compared to Europeans, including education, identity, language, etc. The groups are obviously analogous because this study starts with the immigrant parents and ends four generations later with American born children.
Please post link, thank you.
are you sure you cited the right study...the one you cited was-

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Flows Are Down Sharply Since Mid-Decade - Pew Hispanic Center


if you read the study, its on the immigration flow for the past 10 years...How is that a predictor of future educational success?
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:11 PM
 
358 posts, read 342,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
are you sure you cited the right study...the one you cited was-

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Flows Are Down Sharply Since Mid-Decade - Pew Hispanic Center


if you read the study, its on the immigration flow for the past 10 years...How is that a predictor of future educational success?
Wow, so sorry. I was busy trying to track down figures from another post, here is the report (abstract really) from the book you can purchase on Amazon. http://www.chicano.ucla.edu/press/briefs/documents/PB19.pdf (broken link)
I take that back, on page 5 I did give the above link, you can research the actual book (given in the cover page of the study) for more info, but it would be better to actually read the entire study.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,350,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman82 View Post
The poll does not indicate that Californians will in any way block enforcement.
Would you be so kind as to stop commenting inside the quote? Makes life unneccessarily difficult.

It was most interesting to look at the latest on crime and the immigrant.

It turns out that there is virtually no new information that does anything but support low immigrant crime. The primary are a report by IPC suggesting that 100 years of study have supported low immigrant crime and a CA specific by PPIC making the same point. On the anti side the only interesting related publication was a refutation by CIS that claims the census data used was no good. Interesting though that CIS claims that no on knows or can know the answer...not that the immigrants increase crime.

Perhaps the most interesting is the article by Unz in the American Conservative making the point that immigrant crime is lower than native. There is an active dialog on this one though no one actually refutes Unz...they just question his motives and certain specifics.

So it appears virtually impossible to find anyone pushing immigrant crime except Vdare and FAIR and the other lunatic fringers. They simply use the fed data which shows that immigrants are virtually the only ones arrested for immigration crimes - a really surprising finding.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:34 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,502,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Would you be so kind as to stop commenting inside the quote? Makes life unneccessarily difficult.

It was most interesting to look at the latest on crime and the immigrant.

It turns out that there is virtually no new information that does anything but support low immigrant crime. The primary are a report by IPC suggesting that 100 years of study have supported low immigrant crime and a CA specific by PPIC making the same point. On the anti side the only interesting related publication was a refutation by CIS that claims the census data used was no good. Interesting though that CIS claims that no on knows or can know the answer...not that the immigrants increase crime.

Perhaps the most interesting is the article by Unz in the American Conservative making the point that immigrant crime is lower than native. There is an active dialog on this one though no one actually refutes Unz...they just question his motives and certain specifics.

So it appears virtually impossible to find anyone pushing immigrant crime except Vdare and FAIR and the other lunatic fringers. They simply use the fed data which shows that immigrants are virtually the only ones arrested for immigration crimes - a really surprising finding.
Immigrants? Let's see the stats on illegal alien crimes.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,350,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Immigrants? Let's see the stats on illegal alien crimes.
It is there. Subset of the other stuff. Same message. illegals are the lowest of the immigrants.

It is interesting that even some of the hard core antis take it as a given that the newest of the immigrants have the lowest crime. Not that they buy the low crime by the way...but they do buy the lowest at entry.
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