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Old 07-13-2007, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24

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China has over four times the population of the United States; I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. was first place in per capita polluting.

Now, I can’t really speculate about Al Gore’s motives for not getting into this specific matter, but perhaps he thinks there are many environmental issues that demand more urgent attention.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:29 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
Reputation: 3010
Default More photos from the Arizona Desert....





An excellent article by a gentleman who who hunts and fishes in the Southwestern United States...

The Musings of a Desert Rat.

I’m against illegal immigration. Conversely, I support legal immigration. After all, I am a product of the legal immigration process. I am convinced that this really is the elephant in the living room that no one really wants to talk about. Yeah, they just passed a bill. The President thinks its great. Whoop-de-doo. Hardly anyone else thinks it’s great. I am absolutely convinced that unless you live in Arizona (or Texas, California, or New Mexico) that there is no way you can even begin to fathom this problem. No way.

A person could devote a whole blog to illegal immigration and its effects. The thing is, statistics can be skewed to favor one point of view or another. The whole debate may be too abstract to be clearly “winnable” by any side. What we need is solid evidence. Something indisputable. I believe the evidence is there. Evidence that can not be disputed by any side. Evidence that cannot be “tut-tutted” away. Evidence that ironically, should unite hunters and anti-hunters, liberal and conservatives, ranchers and greenies. What is that you may ask? Garbage. Not just a lot of garbage. Tons. Tons of garbage destroying the desert as we speak. Disrupting delicate ecosystems. Hurting or killing livestock and endangered species alike.

This isn’t “litter”, like you often see along Arizona roads (and what’s up with that, by the way?). This is garbage. Take a bunch of landfills, and mold them into a long narrow landfill running parallel to the border.

More....
Desert Rat » Blog Archive » More than one way to skin a cat..
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:55 PM
 
7 posts, read 23,597 times
Reputation: 13
NationMaster - Statistics > Pollution > Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels 2000 (per capita) (Latest available) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_pol_car_dio_fro_fos_fue_200_percap-fossil-fuels-2000-per-capita - broken link)


^^^^^^Fossil fuel emmissions per capita.



NationMaster - Statistics > Pollution > Nuclear waste per capita (Latest available) by country


^^^^^^^^nuclear waste



You guys have to remember, that Although China towers over us in terms of population, that cars are a relatively new thing. Cars are an extreme luxory over there. America has 300 million citizens, but lives like it's 3 billion. You can't take 3 pictures and try to pass it off as the example kele, those are the exception. Disgarded backpacks and used water bottles can be picked up and cleaned. Carbon emissions and other environmentally harmful chemicals can not be.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:08 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,294,288 times
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From the information I get as a citizen very strongly in favor of environmentally sound practices in business and daily life, and very strongly against illegal immigration, many environmental groups have basically been unable to reconcile joining forces with groups that are widely known as critical of environmentalists as left-wing whackos.

I often write letters and join in forum discussions attempting to convince as many as possible that this is an excellent uniting issue for organizations and the masses who might otherwise be at odds with each other. The environmental impact of an ever increasing population is going to be very dramatically negative in the not-too-distant future.

To me, this negative impact is going to come from legal and well as illegal immigration. Population is going to be public enemy number one and not enough people are aware of the potential problems. Too many people still believe there is plenty of space. Well, maybe so, but is there something wrong with open spaces, unspoiled wilderness for hunters, fishers, campers, hikers, and all other outdoor enthusiasts? Must we import consumers to support our economy? Must we produce ever more humans as future consumers?

There will be water shortages and subsequently food shortages and we will be required to import much more extensively, sending enormously more sums of capital to other countries while doing little to reverse the cash flow.

Shouldn’t those who are not willing to stop the flow of illegal immigration be paying for dumpsters and digging land fills out in these littered areas? That’s what we do here in America; create trash, put it in containers, bury it, and hope for the best. Maybe that’s a good project for those of us concerned with our environment (AKA environmentalists): We should put the press on for businesses to pay for the damages done to the environment because of their incessant actions to get labor el-cheapo.

Environmentalists will be very strong opponents of illegal immigration; it’s a matter of their willingness to throw in with people who have consistently bashed, beleaguered, and belittled them at every opportunity. Maybe encouragement is in order rather than taking more pot shots.
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:26 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker View Post
NationMaster - Statistics > Pollution > Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels 2000 (per capita) (Latest available) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_pol_car_dio_fro_fos_fue_200_percap-fossil-fuels-2000-per-capita - broken link)


^^^^^^Fossil fuel emmissions per capita.



NationMaster - Statistics > Pollution > Nuclear waste per capita (Latest available) by country


^^^^^^^^nuclear waste



You guys have to remember, that Although China towers over us in terms of population, that cars are a relatively new thing. Cars are an extreme luxory over there. America has 300 million citizens, but lives like it's 3 billion. You can't take 3 pictures and try to pass it off as the example kele, those are the exception. Disgarded backpacks and used water bottles can be picked up and cleaned. Carbon emissions and other environmentally harmful chemicals can not be.
The destruction of millions of acres of desert environment is reality. Those photos of garbage are not the exception on the border lands between the U.S. and Mexico--they are the rule. Have you been down there? I have, numerous times. These photos don't even begin to show a miniscule portion of the damage being done to the fragile desert environment by illegal immigration.

While I care about carbon emissions and do what I personally can to avoid adding to the damage they do to the environment, my larger concern at this moment is what is going on at the border. The national trend now is toward reducing the amount of pollution being spewed into the air--God knows that Al Gore and his friends spend every waking moment spreading the news. But nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, is championing the cause of the deserts along our southern border.

Did you even read the article? No of course you didn't.

Here's a choice little morsel for you....

"The trash is piling up faster than it can be cleaned up. Considering that the Border Patrol apprehended more than 577,000 illegal immigrants in 2004-05 alone, the BLM figures that those people left almost four million pounds of trash that same year.

That’s 16 times what was picked up in three years. And that doesn’t include the unknown amounts of garbage left by border-crossers who don’t get caught.

The trash includes water bottles, sweaters, jeans, razors, soap, medications, food, ropes, batteries, cell phones, radios, homemade weapons and human waste.

It has been found in large quantities as high as Miller Peak, towering more than 9,400 feet in the Huachuca Mountains, as well as in low desert such as Organ Pipe National Monument and Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge.

“In the Huachucas, you are almost wading through empty gallon water jugs,” said Steve Singkofer, the Hiking Club’s president. “There’s literally thousands of water jugs, clothes, shoes. You could send 1,000 people out there and they could each pick up a dozen water jugs, and they couldn’t get it all.”

While nobody has an exact cost estimate for removing all the garbage, it’s clearly not cheap. But McFarlin agrees with several advocacy groups that without a tightening of controls on illegal immigration, a guest-worker program or other reform of federal border policy, the trash will just keep coming regardless of what’s spent.

In 2002, the United States estimated that removing all litter from lands just in southeast Arizona - east of the Tohono Reservation - would cost about $4.5 million over five years. This count didn’t include such trash hotbeds as Ironwood Forest National Monument, the Altar Valley, Organ Pipe and Cabeza Prieta."


I know that carbon emissions are the political darling of the left these days, but I have to tell you--I find it rather duplicitous when people sanctimoniously preach to the rest of us about carbon emissions while refusing to acknowledge the fact that illegal immigration is destroying delicate desert habitats along with the plants and animals which rely on them.

But then again, it just isn't politically correct to speak out about how these "hard-working" people are destroying the environment as they disregard sovereign U.S. law to break into our country, is it?
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:15 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,294,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
I know that carbon emissions are the political darling of the left these days, but I have to tell you--I find it rather duplicitous when people sanctimoniously preach to the rest of us about carbon emissions while refusing to acknowledge the fact that illegal immigration is destroying delicate desert habitats along with the plants and animals which rely on them.
There are many fronts to be fought in many battles upcoming; taking back America and the changing of attitudes regarding environmental degradation are two huge projects and they’re going to get bigger. While I agree that the issues with which you’re frustrated need high priority, the other battles cannot be given up. I believe that more effort must be made to join forces with those in the “other camp” so the numbers of those on “our side” will continually increase; those increased numbers will be needed to attend those many fronts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
But then again, it just isn't politically correct to speak out about how these "hard-working" people are destroying the environment as they disregard sovereign U.S. law to break into our country, is it?
It seems to be politically correct to speak out now and it’s doubtful that the political and social atmosphere will go the other way any time soon. It’s about time this notion of political correctness went by the wayside. To be forthright and speak honestly while using common sense in one’s approach is practical and necessary to engage in meaningful debate.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24
I agree completely that it is a serious problem, Kele; however, I still believe fossil fuel emissions, nuclear waste and the like are more threatening to the world overall.

Now, it seems like you’re only pointing the dirty end of the stick at the immigrants; I believe that, if the U.S. had the will to do so, it could have controlled illegal immigration decades ago, creating temporary worker programs and enforcing immigration law.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:12 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
I agree completely that it is a serious problem, Kele; however, I still believe fossil fuel emissions, nuclear waste and the like are more threatening to the world overall.

Now, it seems like you’re only pointing the dirty end of the stick at the immigrants; I believe that, if the U.S. had the will to do so, it could have controlled illegal immigration decades ago, creating temporary worker programs and enforcing immigration law.
I am in complete agreement with the fact that if the U.S. government wanted to end illegal immigration, it could do so, merely by enforcing existing laws. The will to do so is not there.

I am an environmentalist. I am not an environmentalist with tunnel vision--I understand the threats to our world which you mentioned in your post. I think that many of you misunderstand the reasoning behind my post regarding the damage illegal immigration does to fragile desert habitats.

All of the issues you mentioned are in the headlights of mainstream America and most often, the world at large. Each cause has this celebrity or that celebrity speaking out against the damage or potential damage being done to the Earth. There are benefit concerts, national commercials, movies and the like, which speak to each of the issues you mentioned.

But nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, with any sort of clout whatsoever, is speaking up for the out of control damage being done to the environment at our southern border. Do you believe that the destruction of desert habitats of the southwestern United States is somehow less important than say, the destruction of the rainforests? Is the disappearance of the Spotted Owl, one of the animals whose survival Al Gore claims is affected by global warming, any less tragic than the disappearance of Arroyo Toad or the Cactus Ferruginous Pygmy Owl? Their habitat is also being destroyed and it's one of the best kept secrets in enviromental protectionist circles.

Environmentalist organizations such as the Sierra Club have chosen to take no stand on illegal immigration and its damage to fragile habitats at all--basically because the current president is a globalist. I find the lack of interest in and support for the preservation of the deserts of the southwest to be hypocrisy at its worst.

There are plenty of people who are working to bring a solution to the various issues you mentioned and I, as a person who loves the Earth, strive daily to be a part of the solution, not the problem. But I love the whole Earth and work to save her from destruction on all levels--not just those causes backed by somebody famous. The issue of the destruction of our deserts makes everybody uncomfortable because they then must point the finger at those who are destroying the habitat. You can bet your bottom dollar if the cause of the destruction was some large oil corporation, people would be jumping on the "Save the Southwest" bandwagon by the thousands.

Instead, because political correctness has gagged the American populace to the point of muteness, the damage goes unprotested.

Well, I for one, am protesting! I want the rest of the U.S. to wake up and be aware of the fact that many people who are involved in this issue are predicting that much of the plant and animal life which rely on this part of the southwestern U.S. for their very lives, will be gone within a matter of years if this destruction of their habitat is allowed to continue.



This little guy, a Cactus Ferruginous Pygmy Owl, deserves to live too.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Oxygen Ln. AZ
9,321 posts, read 16,140,804 times
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Kele I wanted to add to your reputation but I have to spread some around. I love your posts. The pictures are heartbreaking. For those of us who really are concerned about our habitats and our resources, how can we continue to allow this to go unchallenged. Keep it coming. Build the darn fence.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:53 PM
 
Location: The best country in the world: the USA
1,497 posts, read 4,375,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Illegal immigration is destroying the habitat between Mexico and the U.S. Many plant and animal species are threatened with extinction due to the gross amount of pollution and debris left by illegal aliens in their habitat as well as the destruction to the environment.



Where are the environmentalists?
Oh the Enviros don't care. They think if they can change the US electorate with hardcore angry froeign nationals (who are mostly Communists or Socialists), the Enviros would eventually have power in this country.

The truth is illegal immigration is depleting natural resources such as water and land and causes massive destruction of the environment (as pictured above) and no Enviro cares about it.


The problem:

Hypocisy?? Maybe.

Ignorance and watching too much ABC and NBC?? Definitely!
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