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Old 10-31-2010, 10:58 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,498,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It's a very emotional argument to claim that a child returning to his own country and people would be thrown into a hostile environment.

It's very likely a child returning home will find himself surrounded by extended family and friendly neighbors. And it's not as though these kids never learned the language of their parents, it's the language spoken in the home of these kids, if anything they would feel more at home in their own schools and not exposed to kids and teachers speaking English. At best English is only a second language if they've learned any at all, so going home isn't going to seem hostile or foreign.
The children of immigrants, legal or illegal speak English very well. It is in fact their primary language. Agreed that they speak Spanish well. But they are not educated in Spanish and lose the formal language. They generally speak it well and read and write it poorly.

You folk apparently think this way to avoid dealing with the reality. Take as your model the high school junior who is going to be the class valedictorian, who speaks perfect english and will receive a scholarship to Stanford in engineering.

 
Old 10-31-2010, 03:11 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The children of immigrants, legal or illegal speak English very well. It is in fact their primary language. Agreed that they speak Spanish well. But they are not educated in Spanish and lose the formal language. They generally speak it well and read and write it poorly.

You folk apparently think this way to avoid dealing with the reality. Take as your model the high school junior who is going to be the class valedictorian, who speaks perfect english and will receive a scholarship to Stanford in engineering.
The model - that high school junior returns to Mexico or other country he's from, becomes a class valedictorian there, learns quickly to speak perfect Spanish and attends a fine university in Mexico and helps build up his country and advance his people.

And why is the valedictorian who wants to earn the really big bucks here somehow a better sort of criminal than the harder working lettuce picker? At least the lettuce picker isn't taking a job any American would want. That valedictorian may be here illegally but is worse than most Americans on doing any of those hard work low paying jobs we're told about, he imagines himself to be too good, is too arrogant.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 03:16 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Xenophobia. The US kids of course have a free right of return. That turns them into a different class and virtually guarantees discrimination. Why should a Mexican Teacher spend effort on a kid who is going to leave. And you can almost guarantee the US kids are going to band together for protection in a hostile environ. Guess what they are training for?

It is not great that a kid ever be pulled from a school and plunked into the middle of a foreign environment. If it is done at all it should be done for significant reasons and permanently. But it never is a good thing.
Yet you open border types never condemn this taking a child and plunking him into a foreign environment when it's for the purpose of getting them here (and on their way to a free Stanford University education at the expense of a qualified American student).

Many of these kids arrived just months ago, they would adapt just fine back in their own country. They are dual citizens after all - certainly as adaptable to their parent's country where they understand the language because it is their first language after all.

And why would they leave? If they finish school in Mexico, they will likely head to one of the fine and free Mexican univerisities and may decide they really do love their own country.

It's a myth you people put out that Mexico is unliveable and that no one would ever actually want to live there - and it's worse than a myth because it is a flat out lie.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 03:20 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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[quote=olecapt;16470661]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post

Rounding up 11 million illegals and 3 million american kids is hopelessly impractical. And in fact much of the anti-intelligensia admits that and puts forth a hope or longing that the illegals will self deport. That is because they are aware that they cannot practically be deported.




You propose that it is not our problem even though we are the proximate cause? And the vast majority of these kids are US citizens. And even the ones that are not are trained to exist in an American culture speaking english?

The hostility is automatic. The American kids have a free right to return and almost certainly will. The illegal kids will speak strangely and be cultural different from the locals. Xenophobia will come to the fore.




And they return after a bad year or ten in Mexico. Likely with a grievance against the US for making them leave and badly educated if educated at all in the intervening year. Three million of them. One percent of the US population...guess where they will end up...



One very simple solution is to change the law. We do it all the time when the law is wrong or gets in the way. That removes really your entire argument...and it can be done quickly and does not cost a dime. Then we can devote the resources to making sure it does not happen again.

Would you kindly stop commenting in the quote section. Screws up responding.
And THAT is pure emotionalism. Mexico is a beautiful country with plenty of natural resources. It is among the world's wealthiest nations with a large and growing middle class.

It simply is not the hell hole you pro-open border types like to claim. Many people of Mexico are proud and truly patriotic, they work hard to improve themselves and their country.

The dual citizen kids will not all automatically return to the big easy money of the USA, some will find themselves very happy in the country of their family, the country with their roots and they will push to make needed changes.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 03:29 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
Reputation: 22159
[quote=olecapt;16470661]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post

Rounding up 11 million illegals and 3 million american kids is hopelessly impractical. And in fact much of the anti-intelligensia admits that and puts forth a hope or longing that the illegals will self deport. That is because they are aware that they cannot practically be deported.
Yet it wasn't at all difficult for them to leave their own country - all we have to do is go after the employers and end the welfare handouts and free schools to illegals and many will return home - all on their own. And they don't even need to travel in box cars and in the trunks of cars or hike through a dangerous desert and pay a smuggler $5000 each in order to get here illegally. They can simply hop on a bus, or the INS can provide one and away they go.

As for the free Stanford University education, there will be PLENTY of good qualified American students who would gladly take that - and their parents didn't break any laws to get them that.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 03:40 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,498,817 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The model - that high school junior returns to Mexico or other country he's from, becomes a class valedictorian there, learns quickly to speak perfect Spanish and attends a fine university in Mexico and helps build up his country and advance his people.

Highly improbable as he is down many years in a proper spanish education...and catching up on that would virtually doom him against his peers.

And why on earth would we wish to get rid of one of the chosen ones? One of those with the intelligence and drive to aid our society particularly after we have invested the money in bringing him to fruition?

This is simply the madness of the right. The willingness to do idiotic things for rationale entirely based on emotion. You don't throw the good ones out...

Quote:
And why is the valedictorian who wants to earn the really big bucks here somehow a better sort of criminal than the harder working lettuce picker? At least the lettuce picker isn't taking a job any American would want. That valedictorian may be here illegally but is worse than most Americans on doing any of those hard work low paying jobs we're told about, he imagines himself to be too good, is too arrogant.
He is in no way shape or form a criminal. Even if subject to deportation it will be as an administrative act...not a criminal one. And that is because he has committed no crime. He has violated no statute. Read the statute and try and apply it to a kid who came over at a year old.

I think you guys need this "criminal" fiction to avoid having to face your own cruelty. "Well it is OK because the kid is a criminal" But he is obviously not...he broke no statue. It may well be he did not enter the country illegally.

YOu have no idea what he thinks. You put thoughts in his head to justify your bigotry...your cruelty. He is simply a very bright 16 year old and culturally American. And that apparently drives you wild.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 04:09 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Highly improbable as he is down many years in a proper spanish education...and catching up on that would virtually doom him against his peers.

And why on earth would we wish to get rid of one of the chosen ones? One of those with the intelligence and drive to aid our society particularly after we have invested the money in bringing him to fruition?

This is simply the madness of the right. The willingness to do idiotic things for rationale entirely based on emotion. You don't throw the good ones out...



He is in no way shape or form a criminal. Even if subject to deportation it will be as an administrative act...not a criminal one. And that is because he has committed no crime. He has violated no statute. Read the statute and try and apply it to a kid who came over at a year old.

I think you guys need this "criminal" fiction to avoid having to face your own cruelty. "Well it is OK because the kid is a criminal" But he is obviously not...he broke no statue. It may well be he did not enter the country illegally.

YOu have no idea what he thinks. You put thoughts in his head to justify your bigotry...your cruelty. He is simply a very bright 16 year old and culturally American. And that apparently drives you wild.
English is the SECOND language for these kids, that's why all the ESL programs. Their primary language is the language of their parents and if they're really bright, they would pick up their mother tongue very quickly and easily once in their parent's country.

Culturally many of the anchor children are not at all American. Many in fact display their other nation's flag, celebrate it's holidays - American holidays can seem strange to them.

What of the children illegals smuggle in from back home? Is it equally cruel of these parents to bring their other children to this country? Often they subject their children to criminal cartels to smuggle them in illegally. That really is cruel.

And what is cruel is that so many of the illegals would abandon their children rather than take them home with them when they go. And that they have these children to use them to get a pass around the immigration laws.

So fine - leave the children but deport their criminal parents and ban the parents from reentry permanently. Put the children up for adoption - maybe that's less cruel.

But really don't hysterically claim that Mexico is a horrendous country and that it's cruel for kids who live and grow up there. It really is not.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 04:17 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
Reputation: 22159
And really to claim that returning home to Mexico is too cruel - that's just silly and untrue.

Some of my neighbors recently chose to go back home. I almost bought a truck from them that they were selling to get the money to return home. In fact it was the older daughter who most wanted to go home as they were here illegally and she felt her chances were better back there where universities are free.

She is a bright girl - and very likely she will attend university back in Mexico and do just fine.

Contrary to what the open border crowd likes to claim - Mexico has schools and universities and many of the universities over there are quality schools. Not only that - American students will travel to Mexico and other foreign countries and attend a university. It's really not a horrific experience.

I did this myself - and it was a great experience. Immersion is a great way to learn another language, you can travel and meet interesting people. To claim that children of Mexican parents would find this a horrendous experience is absurd.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 06:32 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,498,817 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
English is the SECOND language for these kids, that's why all the ESL programs. Their primary language is the language of their parents and if they're really bright, they would pick up their mother tongue very quickly and easily once in their parent's country.
Anti fiction. YOu make this stuff up to cover your cruelty.

For most of these chidren english is their first language many can translate for their parents. They watch english TV...not spanish. They are taught in english primarily. They talk to their friends in english. By the time they are in high school they are quite unsuited to a Mexican school enviroment.


Quote:
Culturally many of the anchor children are not at all American. Many in fact display their other nation's flag, celebrate it's holidays - American holidays can seem strange to them.
More Anti propaganda. They tend to go straight for the US stuff that is fed to them by our system. All out on the fourth of July...Sure they may enjoy Dia del Muerto as well. Why not? I marched in the St Patty's day parade a couple of years in NYC. Do you think that made me a Sinn Fein fan?...Hell I did not know I was Irish until I went to college in NYC...was not an option where I grew up.


Quote:
What of the children illegals smuggle in from back home? Is it equally cruel of these parents to bring their other children to this country? Often they subject their children to criminal cartels to smuggle them in illegally. That really is cruel.
You justify your cruelty by pointing out theirs? They obviously believed the move was good for the family and worth the risk. I would think they were correct...particulary if this amnesty eventually comes off.


Quote:
And what is cruel is that so many of the illegals would abandon their children rather than take them home with them when they go. And that they have these children to use them to get a pass around the immigration laws.
Quote:
So fine - leave the children but deport their criminal parents and ban the parents from reentry permanently. Put the children up for adoption - maybe that's less cruel.
So make a proposition. Let us put those children up in high quality foster homes. Let us see what that costs.


Quote:
But really don't hysterically claim that Mexico is a horrendous country and that it's cruel for kids who live and grow up there. It really is not.
I don't have any big problems with Mexico. If I lost my wife I would likely live there. It is a nice place. For a mature single guy or even a couple.

However it would be very tough on a high school aged child raised in the US. That is how it is. Not that the Mexicans are bad...just different and running under a different culture. And note some of the kids would adopt and do fine. Particularly the younger and more flexible. But you would be sending many of these kids down the tubes. Particularly a dumb thing to do on the ones we have to take back.
 
Old 10-31-2010, 06:34 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=olecapt;16470661][quote=chicagonut;16466262]

Rounding up 11 million illegals and 3 million american kids is hopelessly impractical. And in fact much of the anti-intelligensia admits that and puts forth a hope or longing that the illegals will self deport. That is because they are aware that they cannot practically be deported.

Many could be deported involuntarity if our government had the will but since they don't self-deportation is the next best way to get them removed and there are little if any associated costs with self-deportations. You can't say with a straight face that they wouldn't leave without the job incentives, the benefits removed and birthright citizenship changed. Some perhaps would stay but not most of them.




You propose that it is not our problem even though we are the proximate cause? And the vast majority of these kids are US citizens. And even the ones that are not are trained to exist in an American culture speaking english?

The hostility is automatic. The American kids have a free right to return and almost certainly will. The illegal kids will speak strangely and be cultural different from the locals. Xenophobia will come to the fore.

No, "we" aren't the cause. Our government and the greedy employers are and we are going to see that changes. The parents if they care anything about their kids will take their kids with them. They belong with them if they are minors. No, these kids will not speak strangely because they are taught Spanish or whatever their native tongue is by their parents. The native culture doesn't disappear in fact most immigrants retain it at home. Xenophobia is a fear of strangers. How are these kids going to be strangers in their own or their parent's homeland? They are bi-cultural by then.




And they return after a bad year or ten in Mexico. Likely with a grievance against the US for making them leave and badly educated if educated at all in the intervening year. Three million of them. One percent of the US population...guess where they will end up...

Don't really care if they have a grievance against us. By the time they reach adulthood they should be mature enough to realize that it was their parents that did this to them by violating our laws. If they return without having taken advantage of their homeland's schools then they can expect to live poorer here than they did in their homeland.



One very simple solution is to change the law. We do it all the time when the law is wrong or gets in the way. That removes really your entire argument...and it can be done quickly and does not cost a dime. Then we can devote the resources to making sure it does not happen again.

Change the law? What does that mean? Amnesty/CIR? No, it will never end just like it didn't end with the 1986 amnesty. Time to say no more. Enough is enough. We have 4 times the number of illegals in this country today than then. Keeping them will be costly not sending them back home.

Would you kindly stop commenting in the quote section. Screws up responding.

Sorry, but this is the easiest way for me to reply to someone's posts. I replied just fine to someone who did it the same way as I am. If it bothers you then don't respond to me.
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