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Old 11-09-2010, 07:19 AM
 
4,628 posts, read 9,029,920 times
Reputation: 4225

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Or who is going to pick your fruit and veggies when only a very small percentage of illegals are doing agricultural work and there are unlimited H-2A visas for that type of work.
No many how many times you repeat yourself, you cannot change the facts. You are wrong in your wishful thinking.

Immigrants play a prominent role in California’s agricultural labor force. Over half (52.1 percent)of California’s agricultural labor force was classified as “foreign-born, not a U.S. citizen,”compared to less than one-fifth (18.6 percent) of the nonagricultural labor force. In contrast, twothirds
of workers in California nonagricultural labor force were classified as a “native-born U.S.citizens,” compared to less than two-fifths (37.4 percent) of the agricultural labor force. Foreignborn naturalized U.S. citizens made up 15.1 and 10.4 percent of the nonagricultural and agricultural labor forces, respectively.


http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/agric/ca-ag-profile.pdf

Data from the CPS also indicate that almost 40 percent of all farmworkers are foreign-born and lack U.S. citizenship, proportions that are substantially higher than for all wage and salary workers. The CPS data do not indicate how many of those without citizenship possess legal work status. Data from the National Agricultural Workers Survey (NAWS) suggest that half of all hired farmworkers in crops are unauthorized.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Rural Labor and Education: Farm Labor

More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States. ...More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States.

Migrant Farm Workers: Our Nation's Invisible Population - eXtension

One criteria for employment on an H-2A visa for LEGAL migrants is that the employer MUST prove that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work."

 
Old 11-09-2010, 07:29 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,802 posts, read 30,052,880 times
Reputation: 17694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Felina View Post
No many how many times you repeat yourself, you cannot change the facts. You are wrong in your wishful thinking.

Immigrants play a prominent role in California’s agricultural labor force. Over half (52.1 percent)of California’s agricultural labor force was classified as “foreign-born, not a U.S. citizen,”compared to less than one-fifth (18.6 percent) of the nonagricultural labor force. In contrast, twothirds
of workers in California nonagricultural labor force were classified as a “native-born U.S.citizens,” compared to less than two-fifths (37.4 percent) of the agricultural labor force. Foreignborn naturalized U.S. citizens made up 15.1 and 10.4 percent of the nonagricultural and agricultural labor forces, respectively.


http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/agric/ca-ag-profile.pdf

Data from the CPS also indicate that almost 40 percent of all farmworkers are foreign-born and lack U.S. citizenship, proportions that are substantially higher than for all wage and salary workers. The CPS data do not indicate how many of those without citizenship possess legal work status. Data from the National Agricultural Workers Survey (NAWS) suggest that half of all hired farmworkers in crops are unauthorized.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Rural Labor and Education: Farm Labor

More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States. ...More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States.

Migrant Farm Workers: Our Nation's Invisible Population - eXtension

One criteria for employment on an H-2A visa for LEGAL migrants is that the employer MUST prove that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work."
There aren't sufficient workers AT THAT PAY. Raise the pay and you will have no problem finding workers. If a business can't profit without illegal labor it needs to fail. If we look at the remainder after cheap labor - stolen social services the price of that apple becomes a lot more expensive since we are subsidizing these losers hiring them.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 08:12 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Felina View Post
No many how many times you repeat yourself, you cannot change the facts. You are wrong in your wishful thinking.

Immigrants play a prominent role in California’s agricultural labor force. Over half (52.1 percent)of California’s agricultural labor force was classified as “foreign-born, not a U.S. citizen,”compared to less than one-fifth (18.6 percent) of the nonagricultural labor force. In contrast, twothirds
of workers in California nonagricultural labor force were classified as a “native-born U.S.citizens,” compared to less than two-fifths (37.4 percent) of the agricultural labor force. Foreignborn naturalized U.S. citizens made up 15.1 and 10.4 percent of the nonagricultural and agricultural labor forces, respectively.

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/agric/ca-ag-profile.pdf

Data from the CPS also indicate that almost 40 percent of all farmworkers are foreign-born and lack U.S. citizenship, proportions that are substantially higher than for all wage and salary workers. The CPS data do not indicate how many of those without citizenship possess legal work status. Data from the National Agricultural Workers Survey (NAWS) suggest that half of all hired farmworkers in crops are unauthorized.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Rural Labor and Education: Farm Labor

More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States. ...More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States.

Migrant Farm Workers: Our Nation's Invisible Population - eXtension

One criteria for employment on an H-2A visa for LEGAL migrants is that the employer MUST prove that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work."
And no matter how you try to spin it most illegals in this country are not crop picking. Most are doing non-agriculatural jobs. Why shouldn't the farmers have to prove that they can't find enough citizen or legal immigrant workers to pick crops? They just want the cheap, illegal labor instead and that is why they bypass the H-2A visas. It lines their pockets with more profit and they don't have to be bothered with providing housing, healthcare, reasonable working hours, and a fair wage to these illegal workers.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 08:20 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,690,528 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Felina View Post
No many how many times you repeat yourself, you cannot change the facts. You are wrong in your wishful thinking.

Immigrants play a prominent role in California’s agricultural labor force. Over half (52.1 percent)of California’s agricultural labor force was classified as “foreign-born, not a U.S. citizen,”compared to less than one-fifth (18.6 percent) of the nonagricultural labor force. In contrast, twothirds
of workers in California nonagricultural labor force were classified as a “native-born U.S.citizens,” compared to less than two-fifths (37.4 percent) of the agricultural labor force. Foreignborn naturalized U.S. citizens made up 15.1 and 10.4 percent of the nonagricultural and agricultural labor forces, respectively.


http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/agric/ca-ag-profile.pdf

Data from the CPS also indicate that almost 40 percent of all farmworkers are foreign-born and lack U.S. citizenship, proportions that are substantially higher than for all wage and salary workers. The CPS data do not indicate how many of those without citizenship possess legal work status. Data from the National Agricultural Workers Survey (NAWS) suggest that half of all hired farmworkers in crops are unauthorized.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Rural Labor and Education: Farm Labor

More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States. ...More than half of all farm workers – 52 of every 100 – are unauthorized workers with no legal status in the United States.

Migrant Farm Workers: Our Nation's Invisible Population - eXtension

One criteria for employment on an H-2A visa for LEGAL migrants is that the employer MUST prove that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work."
So, what you're telling us, is that you support the corporate sponsored indentured servitude of an entire geopolitical group of people.

Nice.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 10:48 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
He should be executed just like his victims. Why should taxpayers be burdened with his life sentence costs?
I agree with you on this. An even better suggestion would have the perpetrators placed into compulsory servitude as a means to provide monetary recompense to the offended parties (and/or their surviving family members).

This will also afford the criminals time to consider what they've done and understand the consequences of their reprobate actions. Then, when these murderers are no longer fit for servitude, they should be sent, by way of execution, to a heavenly court for further examination in the presence of their victims.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,950,538 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Or who is going to pick your fruit and veggies when only a very small percentage of illegals are doing agricultural work and there are unlimited H-2A visas for that type of work.
Not to mention the H-2B visas for temporary NONagricultural workers. The companies that use them to bring in landscapers and construction workers in while claiming they can't find Americans to do those jobs.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: SELA
532 posts, read 876,375 times
Reputation: 227
These anecdotes are intended to appeal to emotional sentiments, obviously, preventing a sound and rational analysis of immigration policy. An opponent could do the same with this story.

Quote:
When he arrived in the United States as an illegal migrant farm worker in 1987, Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa was 19 years old. He spoke not a word of English and had less than $5 in his pocket. But he had something that many native-born Americans lack—a burning desire to make something of himself.

Today, Quiñones—or Dr. Q., as he is known to colleagues—is an assistant professor of neurosurgery and oncology and director of the Brain Tumor Surgery Program at Hopkins Bayview.
Anecdotes have limited scientific value because they cannot discern general trends, and may often reflect exceptions to rules. In fact, I'd expect them to reflect exceptions to rules more often than not, because it's the uniqueness of anecdotes that makes them sufficiently interesting to relate. I'll never forget this story about the illegal immigrant turned famous physician and surgeon, for example. Anyway, since the nature of human experiences is broad and heterogenous, and it's wrong to cherry pick and infer the characteristics of a forest based on a tree or two, let's consider econometric evidence, since statistical research is likely to provide firmer conclusions about immigrants' crime rates and illegal immigrants' status-unrelated crime rates. Here's a selection.

1. Crime, Corrections, and California: "We find that the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison population. Thus, immigrants are underrepresented in California prisons compared to their representation in the overall population. In fact, U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.

The difference only grows when we expand our investigation. When we consider all institutionalization (not only prisons but also jails, halfway houses, and the like) and focus on the population that is most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity (men ages 18–40), we find that, in California, U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men (4.2% vs. 0.42%). And when we compare foreign-born men to U.S.-born men with similar age and education levels, these differences become even greater. Indeed, our evidence suggests that increasing educational requirements in the provision of visas would have very little effect in the criminal justice arena."

2. Cross-city evidence on the relationship between immigration and crime: "Public concerns about the costs of immigration and crime are high, and sometimes overlapping. This article investigates the relationship between immigration into a metropolitan area and that area's crime rate during the 1980s. Using data from the Uniform Crime Reports and the Current Population Surveys, we find, in the cross section, that cities with high crime rates tend to have large numbers of immigrants. However, controlling for the demographic characteristics of the cities, recent immigrants appear to have no effect on crime rates. In explaining changes in a city's crime rate over time, the flow of immigrants again has no effect, whether or not we control for other city-level characteristics. In a secondary analysis of individual data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY), we find that youth born abroad are statistically significantly less likely than native-born youth to be criminally active."

3. The immigration–crime relationship: Evidence across US metropolitan areas : "Despite popular commentary claiming a link between immigration and crime, empirical research exploring this relationship is sparse. Especially missing from the literature on immigration and crime is a consideration of how immigration affects rates of crime at the macro-level. Although individual-level studies of immigrant criminality and victimization tend to demonstrate that immigrants typically engage in less crime than their native-born counterparts, the effect of immigration on aggregate criminal offending is less clear. In this research, we attempt to address this weakness in the literature by examining the effects of aspects of immigration on crime rates in metropolitan areas. We combine 2000 US Census data and 2000 Uniform Crime Report data to explore how the foreign-born population influences criminal offending across a sample of metropolitan areas. After controlling for a host of demographic and economic characteristics, we find that immigration does not increase crime rates, and some aspects of immigration lessen crime in metropolitan areas."

4. Undocumented Immigration and Rates of Crime and Imprisonment: Popular Myths and Empirical Realities: "Since the early 1990s, as the immigrant population (especially the undocumented population) increased sharply to historic highs, the rates of violent crimes and property crimes in the United States decreased significantly, in some instances to historic lows—as measured both by crimes reported to the police and by national victimization surveys. Moreover, data from the census and a wide range of other empirical studies show that for every ethnic group without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated. This holds true especially for the Mexicans, Salvadorans, and Guatemalans who make up the bulk of the undocumented population. These patterns have been observed consistently over the last three decennial censuses, a period that spans the current era of mass immigration, and recall similar national-level findings reported by three major government commissions during the first three decades of the 20th century."

5. Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men: "Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men (see Table 1)...Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration. "

6. Sociological Criminology and the Mythology of Hispanic Immigration and Crime: "Our sociological knowledge of crime is fragmented and ineffective in challenging and correcting mistaken public perceptions, for example, linking immigration and crime. These misperceptions are perpetuated by government reports of growing numbers of Hispanic immigrants in U.S. prisons. However, Hispanic immigrants are disproportionately young males who regardless of citizenship are at greater risk of criminal involvement. They are also more vulnerable to restrictive treatment in the criminal justice system, especially at the pre-trial stage. When these differences are integrated into calculations using equations that begin with observed numbers of immigrants and citizens in state prisons, it is estimated that the involvement of Hispanic immigrants in crime is less than that of citizens. These results cast doubt on the hypothesis that immigration causes crime and make more transparent the immigration and criminal justice policies that inflate the rate of Hispanic incarceration. This transparency helps to resolve a paradox in the picture of Mexican immigration to the United States, since by most measures of well-being, Mexican immigrants are found to do as well and sometimes better than citizens."

7. Immigration and homicide in urban America: what's the connection?: "Findings – Cities with greater immigrant concentration have lower homicide rates. There is a significant and fairly strong positive relationship between immigration and gang-related homicides.

Value – This analysis with disaggregated homicide adds to the findings that immigration is not associated with increased crime. Its finding of a correlation between immigration and gang-related homicides points to the next question that needs to be addressed with appropriate data."



 
Old 11-09-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
These anecdotes are intended to appeal to emotional sentiments, obviously, preventing a sound and rational analysis of immigration policy. An opponent could do the same with this story.



Anecdotes have limited scientific value because they cannot discern general trends, and may often reflect exceptions to rules. In fact, I'd expect them to reflect exceptions to rules more often than not, because it's the uniqueness of anecdotes that makes them sufficiently interesting to relate. I'll never forget this story about the illegal immigrant turned famous physician and surgeon, for example. Anyway, since the nature of human experiences is broad and heterogenous, and it's wrong to cherry pick and infer the characteristics of a forest based on a tree or two, let's consider econometric evidence, since statistical research is likely to provide firmer conclusions about immigrants' crime rates and illegal immigrants' status-unrelated crime rates. Here's a selection.

1. Crime, Corrections, and California: "We find that the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison population. Thus, immigrants are underrepresented in California prisons compared to their representation in the overall population. In fact, U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.

The difference only grows when we expand our investigation. When we consider all institutionalization (not only prisons but also jails, halfway houses, and the like) and focus on the population that is most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity (men ages 18–40), we find that, in California, U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men (4.2% vs. 0.42%). And when we compare foreign-born men to U.S.-born men with similar age and education levels, these differences become even greater. Indeed, our evidence suggests that increasing educational requirements in the provision of visas would have very little effect in the criminal justice arena."

2. Cross-city evidence on the relationship between immigration and crime: "Public concerns about the costs of immigration and crime are high, and sometimes overlapping. This article investigates the relationship between immigration into a metropolitan area and that area's crime rate during the 1980s. Using data from the Uniform Crime Reports and the Current Population Surveys, we find, in the cross section, that cities with high crime rates tend to have large numbers of immigrants. However, controlling for the demographic characteristics of the cities, recent immigrants appear to have no effect on crime rates. In explaining changes in a city's crime rate over time, the flow of immigrants again has no effect, whether or not we control for other city-level characteristics. In a secondary analysis of individual data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY), we find that youth born abroad are statistically significantly less likely than native-born youth to be criminally active."

3. The immigration–crime relationship: Evidence across US metropolitan areas : "Despite popular commentary claiming a link between immigration and crime, empirical research exploring this relationship is sparse. Especially missing from the literature on immigration and crime is a consideration of how immigration affects rates of crime at the macro-level. Although individual-level studies of immigrant criminality and victimization tend to demonstrate that immigrants typically engage in less crime than their native-born counterparts, the effect of immigration on aggregate criminal offending is less clear. In this research, we attempt to address this weakness in the literature by examining the effects of aspects of immigration on crime rates in metropolitan areas. We combine 2000 US Census data and 2000 Uniform Crime Report data to explore how the foreign-born population influences criminal offending across a sample of metropolitan areas. After controlling for a host of demographic and economic characteristics, we find that immigration does not increase crime rates, and some aspects of immigration lessen crime in metropolitan areas."

4. Undocumented Immigration and Rates of Crime and Imprisonment: Popular Myths and Empirical Realities: "Since the early 1990s, as the immigrant population (especially the undocumented population) increased sharply to historic highs, the rates of violent crimes and property crimes in the United States decreased significantly, in some instances to historic lows—as measured both by crimes reported to the police and by national victimization surveys. Moreover, data from the census and a wide range of other empirical studies show that for every ethnic group without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated. This holds true especially for the Mexicans, Salvadorans, and Guatemalans who make up the bulk of the undocumented population. These patterns have been observed consistently over the last three decennial censuses, a period that spans the current era of mass immigration, and recall similar national-level findings reported by three major government commissions during the first three decades of the 20th century."

5. Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men: "Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men (see Table 1)...Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration. "

6. Sociological Criminology and the Mythology of Hispanic Immigration and Crime: "Our sociological knowledge of crime is fragmented and ineffective in challenging and correcting mistaken public perceptions, for example, linking immigration and crime. These misperceptions are perpetuated by government reports of growing numbers of Hispanic immigrants in U.S. prisons. However, Hispanic immigrants are disproportionately young males who regardless of citizenship are at greater risk of criminal involvement. They are also more vulnerable to restrictive treatment in the criminal justice system, especially at the pre-trial stage. When these differences are integrated into calculations using equations that begin with observed numbers of immigrants and citizens in state prisons, it is estimated that the involvement of Hispanic immigrants in crime is less than that of citizens. These results cast doubt on the hypothesis that immigration causes crime and make more transparent the immigration and criminal justice policies that inflate the rate of Hispanic incarceration. This transparency helps to resolve a paradox in the picture of Mexican immigration to the United States, since by most measures of well-being, Mexican immigrants are found to do as well and sometimes better than citizens."

7. Immigration and homicide in urban America: what's the connection?: "Findings – Cities with greater immigrant concentration have lower homicide rates. There is a significant and fairly strong positive relationship between immigration and gang-related homicides.

Value – This analysis with disaggregated homicide adds to the findings that immigration is not associated with increased crime. Its finding of a correlation between immigration and gang-related homicides points to the next question that needs to be addressed with appropriate data."



This illegal alien scum executed innocent people as a gang initiation. Why anyone would even attempt to marginalize such a heinous act, is beyond me. You can post crime stats until the cows come home, but it won’t change the fact that we have untold thousands, perhaps millions of murderers who are in this country illegally and are wreaking havoc.

We may be forced to tolerate our homegrown criminals, but we damn sure don’t have to tolerate it from people who have no legal right to even be here. It may be a non-issue to you, but I am sick of citizens in this country being victimized by reprobate illegal aliens.

Furthermore, this is not an “immigration” issue. There are no credible stats on the illegal alien miscreants who slither across our borders to commit rape and murder.
 
Old 11-09-2010, 02:59 PM
 
Location: SELA
532 posts, read 876,375 times
Reputation: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This illegal alien scum executed innocent people as a gang initiation. Why anyone would even attempt to marginalize such a heinous act, is beyond me. You can post crime stats until the cows come home, but it won’t change the fact that we have untold thousands, perhaps millions of murderers who are in this country illegally and are wreaking havoc.
It won't change facts. It will, however, reveal allegations of facts to be false in some instances, such as suggestions that "millions of murderers who are in this country illegally and are wreaking havoc" could exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We may be forced to tolerate our homegrown criminals, but we damn sure don’t have to tolerate it from people who have no legal right to even be here. It may be a non-issue to you, but I am sick of citizens in this country being victimized by reprobate illegal aliens.
It should please you, then, that their status-unrelated crime rates are so low compared to the "homegrown" population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Furthermore, this is not an “immigration” issue. There are no credible stats on the illegal alien miscreants who slither across our borders to commit rape and murder.
What are "credible stats"? Those that reflect your personal opinion?
 
Old 11-09-2010, 03:10 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
Reputation: 326
Here is an interesting article concerning the subject of illegals and the crimes they commit:

Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, Ph.D. - Criminal Profiler : Crime & Terrorism investigation resources

There are other documents on the site that are worth reading also. I would encourage everyone to read about the price America is paying to allow Illegal Aliens into our homeland. What ever benefits we're told they bring will never pay for the crime and destruction it brings with it.
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