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Old 11-18-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, New York
3,674 posts, read 5,851,772 times
Reputation: 3553

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sd1984: The SS number you are using is STOLEN. It doesn not belong to you, it belongs to someone else. "I" (the American, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens) paid for your education. I probably subsidized your college. I didn't want to. I wanted to get my Master's degree, but I can't afford it because I have to pay for people like you. I had to pay for your medical, your housing, your food stamps, and if you commit a crime, your incarceration. You've stolen my SS number, and you screw up my credit, I have to pay for that too. IT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU. You have commited a crime and that now makes you a criminal as well. Stop blaming us. Blame YOUR LAW BREAKING PARENTS. You consider yourself American, but you are not. You are Mexican or Chinese or Russian or Irish or Yugoslavian or Ethiopian or wherever it is that your parents snuck you in from.

Sorry, not much sympathy here. Your and your are criminals. Tell me, have you at least applied for citizenship?
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by sd1984 View Post
I am one of those "DREAMies" as you arrogantly call it. I was brought to this country when I was only 11 years old and ever since I've been here I've worked, my mom has worked, and my father has worked. Long hours, hard labor, low pay, and even sometimes no pay. You can not imagine the struggles we faced, and you can not judge people without putting yourselves in their shoes and experience life as we live it, but that's another story and off topic. I've worked my butt off to pay for my studies, and yes high school was free and I'm very thankful to this country for its wonderful educational system, but being a college student I can say that I've paid for everything without receiving any money from the government, or your taxpayer money. I've worked in restaurants, construction sites, liquor stores, flower shops, car washes, and yes, like millions of undocumented immigrants I used a fake SSN, so some of you might have received some of that money which I can't and would never claim even if I was given the chance. I've paid my way through school with sacrifice and a lot of sweat from all those jobs. I graduated from a Community College with 3 Associate's Degrees and transferred to a State University. I'm currently working on my Bachelor's and expect to graduate next semester.
I consider myself and American because this is the land that saw me grew up, that gave me shelter and gave me the opportunity, even if I had to fight hard to get that opportunity.
From eating fast food and apple pies, to going to the ball park and sing "take me out to the ball park" during the 7th inning stretch. My eyes become watery and my heart sings "The Star Spangled Banner" as the Football stadium awaits Kick-Off. I consider myself an American because that's what I've embraced since childhood and that's the life I've had growing up. I've fought hard to be where I am, I've made a ton of sacrifices to stay in school and stay out of trouble. We must work hard together to improve ourselves and have a better opportunity. That's the true nature of being an American, to better yourself while working with others in order to help each other out.
I understand some people may be upset because an illegal immigrant may have a higher education than them, or their son, their daughter, their nephew etc. But we make choices in life, and those choices lead us in our path. Those "DREAMies" have a story similar or even worst than mine, but they're still pursuing their dreams, some in school, and some hoping to serve our country in the Armed Forces. All they're asking for is an opportunity to show this country their appreciation, repay in some way for the opportunities that this great land offers to immigrants, whether they're Asian, African, European or wherever they come from. We just want to continue our lives without that "fear", without that "obstacle" of not knowing if we'll be able to finishing our goals, without being "discriminated" against for not being "American enough", for being "Illegals" or having brown skin. We know we can contribute to the well being of society, these students are prepared and would like to contribute to the land that saw them grow up. All we ask for is a chance.
Perhaps you don’t realize, or don’t care, but your “fake” SSN may actually be an assigned number, which creates countless problems for the lawful owner. Consider that, before you pat yourself on the back. Furthermore, your meager SS deductions will NEVER repay the thousands of dollars you have received for your tax-funded education, including ESL classes, and perhaps “free” breakfast and lunch. In addition, each of your illegally obtained jobs is a job a citizen or legal resident could have had, and may have needed to feed his or her family. Obviously, you have no regard for others, and consider our laws a mere inconvenience. Yet, you have the audacity to feel entitled to legalization and a path to citizenship. Citizenship should be earned, not stolen.

It is not “arrogant” to refer to the beneficiaries of the DREAM Act as “DREAMies.” We did not coin the phrase. That was the brainchild of DREAM Act hopefuls. By the way, they also refer to themselves as “DREAMers.” I assume you are not a member of the DREAM Act Portal Forum (DAP). For your convenience, I am providing the link. You will find comfort among other whiny, entitlement-minded illegals. DREAM Act Portal Forum - Powered by vBulletin

Countless citizens have sacrificed to attend college. Many have held full-time jobs during the day, while attending school at night, weekends, and during the summer. Some have also juggled family responsibilities, and raised children while attending college; while others have attended college during the day and worked at night for several years simply to earn a four-year degree. Nothing you have mentioned is extraordinary. The difference being, their employment and “sacrifices” did not involve theft, fraud, and deception.

Speaking of college -- I generally don’t comment on a posters’ sentence structure or grammar. However, since you are claiming to have earned 3 Associate degrees, and will soon receive a BS/BA, I question your post, and marvel at your ability to pass English 101. No offense intended, but it’s glaringly conspicuous.

You can blame your parents for your “fears” and “obstacles.” It is they who chose to violate our laws. I’m sorry, but you will have to pursue your dreams in your country of origin. You are not entitled to legal status or citizenship simply because you were brought to this country illegally as a child. Unfortunately, when parents choose to engage in criminal behavior, their children often suffer the consequences. Nevertheless, we do not reward the children. You must realize this country has been more than generous, and owes you absolutely nothing. Thank us, and bid us adieu.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,946,003 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by sd1984 View Post
I've worked, my mom has worked, and my father has worked.
How nice that you can ALL work here illegally. Yep you're JUST the kind of law abiding people this nation needs - not.
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Old 11-18-2010, 12:51 PM
 
1,011 posts, read 846,038 times
Reputation: 467
I don't understand why people keep bringing up the pre Columbian days. It makes no sense. The matter under discussion is the millions of people unlawfully entering the sovereign country of the US today.

The US has been around for a while, long enough to be considered the legal and enforcing authority over the lands it occupies. Anyone wants to dispute that...? Take it up with our National and Coastal Guard And the country of the US has clear laws as to how go about entering it, and applying for visas and citizenship.

Or do the folks trotting out that 'argument' seek the US to dissolve itself into a loose patchwork of warring tribes and toss every law on the books away (including the Constitution), so it can be like it was back then?

Doubt it. People try to immigrate to the US BECAUSE OF ITS LAWS, because it's the laws (like the Constitution) that make the US what it is, everything else including economy and wealth and stability follow from the laws. And the laws include immigration laws.
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:14 PM
 
4 posts, read 4,107 times
Reputation: 10
It's good to acknowledge extreme bias, and MSNBC's Beyond Borderlines was definitely an example of it.

With that said, it seems everyone in this thread hates such bias, and I therefore assume everyone here hates Fox News as well (or Lou Dobbs, Michael Savage, etc.). It's obvious nobody posting here subscribes to a liberal philosophy, so if those of you here are listeners or viewers of conservative pundits you may want to analyze your definition of bias...and self evaluate how balanced your judgments truly are before getting so furious when a network presents something that opposes your view. Just throwing that out there in case this applies to anyone on here.

From what I saw of this "town hall" the bias was blatant. MSNBC would have really helped itself if it would have executed this in a more balanced manner. However, who cares?? It's TV and that's how it goes. It happens on both sides and the goal should just be to take 99.9% of ALL media coverage with a grain of salt. If you fear that this is fueling the propaganda to be more open to unauthorized immigrants, keep in mind that there is plenty of propaganda that fuels the anti immigration rhetoric as well. So don’t worry about it too much.

What I find interesting, and what has compelled me to post on here, is how much things change the more they stay the same. FEAR is so powerful and it is so unfortunately evident in this thread (and of course in the larger society). "Wellyouknow" asks why do people keep bringing up the Columbian days? Well, why do we make students take social studies and history in school? Though there may be an agenda of socialization/nationalism in teaching history, theoretically it should also be intended to teach us to learn about ourselves through our past actions (and hopefully learn from our mistakes). It fascinates me how history seems to never fail to repeat itself. Fear of immigrants has always existed, as well as the same propaganda to stigmatize them. If you don't believe me, I highly recommend you go to library and read it for yourself. It has ALWAYS existed the same way it does now. And what has always been the result? Turns out those Irish or those Italian folks aren't so bad after all. Turns out they didn't completely destroy the economy or culture the way the native Amercians (the immigrant native Americans, not the actual ones) so anxiously feared! A century from now people are going to read about you guys the same way we, today, read about Americans who once had this openly great hate and fear of the scary black man. African Americans maybe didn't immigrate here by choice the same way today's immigrants do, but the great fear of the "other" - or as you guys seem to see it, the "not-entitled" - is fundamentally the same. The same way you guys are frustrated at everyone’s blindness to how detrimental these "aliens" are (and will increasingly continue to be), they too used to feel everyone else was so blind to not realize the disaster that would result from offering compassion and accommodation to those destructive "nig**s." The same way they dehumanized "nig**s", you guys are choosing to dehumanize "aliens." I know you guys think it’s a stretch and will try to justify that today’s situation is different…but it really is not. Artificial, socially constructed fear translating into hate and exclusion is what has always existed and what is happening now.


As far as them being illegal criminals…laws are not an absolute judge of right and wrong and you guys know this. There have been plenty of laws in history and to this day that breaking does not make one such a horrible person. Let me present you guys with a hypothetical, but still possible, scenario. Assume you guys are right, and these criminal aliens eventually bring our country into a horrific downward spiral. Corruption is fierce, violence is prevalent, and more importantly there are just no opportunities for you to make enough money to feed your family anymore (I know this is hard for you guys to grasp, but it’s the reality of some countries, and there’s no reason why it couldn’t happen here hundreds of years from now). However, assume at the same time Mexico improves their politics and economy and is now booming. Technically, it’s illegal to migrate into Mexico without the proper documentation. However, it’s intentionally made quite lengthy and difficult to actually become fully authorized to work and live in Mexico. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for work and plenty of Americans decide to just migrate in there and take the jobs they can get. Otherwise, they could just let their American children be hungry and live with no opportunity for any type of social mobility. To me it sounds logical that so many Americans would make the risky trip to Mexico rather than suffer here. Are you guys seriously saying you would stay here and let your children suffer simply because it would make you a criminal to go work in Mexico?!? If so I question your parenting. Especially if many of your children grow up to enter their universities and contribute strongly to their society…you would call your children criminals who don’t deserve to progress? Also consider that Mexico had historically contributed to the poor conditions here that fuel Americans into migrating into Mexico for work (ie, NAFTA today). I personally would hope Mexico would be more accommodating to helping us Americans in need. I think it would be ridiculous to call us criminals for just trying to work in their country. And if they complained about their hard earned tax money paying for our illegal living, that would just be extremely unfair, greedy, and sad of them.


I’m an American citizen who pays taxes (always has) just like you guys. I wonder why I don’t get so angry about my tax money apparently going to these undeserving, “criminal aliens.” I work in education so I obviously don’t make a lot of money, yet I don’t feel this selfish and greedy perception like immigrants are stealing my money. I eat everyday, have a place to live, and even enough money to enjoy simple luxuries (go out to dinner at a restaurant, take a little vacation every once in a while, etc.). It’s truly absurd to believe that if one day I can’t afford these things it will be because of immigrants. They don’t threaten me at all. And I live in a border town with plenty of Mexicans. And frankly, I actually feel sympathy for them and the experiences they go through. I don’t at all mind sharing a city with them if they choose to come here for better opportunities. I don’t feel like my tax money is being sucked dry by them. Again, that’s just absurd to actually believe. What does this openness make me? Am I ignorant? Is it bad of me to live in a city full of immigrants and not desire they all leave? Should I shift the injustices that I see in our society, and direct my disapproval at them? Are they in fact the true criminals I should be afraid of (rather than extremely powerful elites)? Am I not looking at my taxes closely enough to realize that these aliens are actually making my life miserable? Should I be more like you guys and live my life full of fear that criminal aliens are taking my money and committing all these crimes? What’s the difference between you guy and myself? Why do you think it does not fill me with anger to read about the kid who posted on here about being illegal and going to college, but it does for you guys? I’m wondering if I’m doing my children a disservice for teaching them to be more accepting of others rather than teaching them that they should be afraid of non-Americans who don’t have the proper pieces of paper to live around us. But if I did teach them the latter, I couldn’t help but feel hypocritical when answering them when they come home and ask why people used to hate Jews, Irish, Polish, Italians, Blacks, etc.
Please let me know if what I’m saying is unfair and I’d love to hear your opinions why.
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:32 PM
 
166 posts, read 212,151 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sd1984 View Post
I am one of those "DREAMies" as you arrogantly call it. I was brought to this country when I was only 11 years old and ever since I've been here I've worked, my mom has worked, and my father has worked. Long hours, hard labor, low pay, and even sometimes no pay. You can not imagine the struggles we faced, and you can not judge people without putting yourselves in their shoes and experience life as we live it, but that's another story and off topic. I've worked my butt off to pay for my studies, and yes high school was free and I'm very thankful to this country for its wonderful educational system, but being a college student I can say that I've paid for everything without receiving any money from the government, or your taxpayer money. I've worked in restaurants, construction sites, liquor stores, flower shops, car washes, and yes, like millions of undocumented immigrants I used a fake SSN, so some of you might have received some of that money which I can't and would never claim even if I was given the chance. I've paid my way through school with sacrifice and a lot of sweat from all those jobs. I graduated from a Community College with 3 Associate's Degrees and transferred to a State University. I'm currently working on my Bachelor's and expect to graduate next semester.
I consider myself and American because this is the land that saw me grew up, that gave me shelter and gave me the opportunity, even if I had to fight hard to get that opportunity.
From eating fast food and apple pies, to going to the ball park and sing "take me out to the ball park" during the 7th inning stretch. My eyes become watery and my heart sings "The Star Spangled Banner" as the Football stadium awaits Kick-Off. I consider myself an American because that's what I've embraced since childhood and that's the life I've had growing up. I've fought hard to be where I am, I've made a ton of sacrifices to stay in school and stay out of trouble. We must work hard together to improve ourselves and have a better opportunity. That's the true nature of being an American, to better yourself while working with others in order to help each other out.
I understand some people may be upset because an illegal immigrant may have a higher education than them, or their son, their daughter, their nephew etc. But we make choices in life, and those choices lead us in our path. Those "DREAMies" have a story similar or even worst than mine, but they're still pursuing their dreams, some in school, and some hoping to serve our country in the Armed Forces. All they're asking for is an opportunity to show this country their appreciation, repay in some way for the opportunities that this great land offers to immigrants, whether they're Asian, African, European or wherever they come from. We just want to continue our lives without that "fear", without that "obstacle" of not knowing if we'll be able to finishing our goals, without being "discriminated" against for not being "American enough", for being "Illegals" or having brown skin. We know we can contribute to the well being of society, these students are prepared and would like to contribute to the land that saw them grow up. All we ask for is a chance.
GO HOME (hint: it's not in the USA)
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:54 PM
 
220 posts, read 329,226 times
Reputation: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2ten View Post
GO HOME (hint: it's not in the USA)

Hopefully the Dream Act will pass and this young person will be able to call themselves an American.

Then he/she will be home.

It will come to pass and you will have to deal with it.
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:48 PM
 
1,011 posts, read 846,038 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodneighbor1234 View Post
Hopefully the Dream Act will pass and this young person will be able to call themselves an American.

Then he/she will be home.

It will come to pass and you will have to deal with it.
There you have it, folks. Zing. The arrogance and complete disrespect for the laws of this country in full display.

With a touch of a magic wand they will be able to call themselves American. We, the citizens have no say and 'just have to deal with it'.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:55 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodneighbor1234 View Post
Hopefully the Dream Act will pass and this young person will be able to call themselves an American.

Then he/she will be home.

It will come to pass and you will have to deal with it.
It isn't going to pass. Deal with it.
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:50 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=eg1350;16732330]


It fascinates me how history seems to never fail to repeat itself. Fear of immigrants has always existed, as well as the same propaganda to stigmatize them.

Immigrants aren't the subject, illegal aliens are.

And what has always been the result? Turns out those Irish or those Italian folks aren't so bad after all. Turns out they didn't completely destroy the economy or culture the way the native Amercians (the immigrant native Americans, not the actual ones) so anxiously feared!

Why are you making comparisons between the legal immigrants of the past to today's illegal aliens? Today it is about status not ethnicity/nationality or race.

A century from now people are going to read about you guys the same way we, today, read about Americans who once had this openly great hate and fear of the scary black man. African Americans maybe didn't immigrate here by choice the same way today's immigrants do, but the great fear of the "other" - or as you guys seem to see it, the "not-entitled" - is fundamentally the same.

Again, this isn't about race but one's non-right to be in this country because they didn't go through legal channels and honor our immigration laws. There is no fear of the "other" today.


The same way you guys are frustrated at everyone’s blindness to how detrimental these "aliens" are (and will increasingly continue to be), they too used to feel everyone else was so blind to not realize the disaster that would result from offering compassion and accommodation to those destructive "nig**s." The same way they dehumanized "nig**s", you guys are choosing to dehumanize "aliens." I know you guys think it’s a stretch and will try to justify that today’s situation is different…but it really is not. Artificial, socially constructed fear translating into hate and exclusion is what has always existed and what is happening now.

The stats on the negative impact of illegal immigration is out there for you to read. Loss of jobs, their social costs, increased crime and overcrowding due to uncontrolled population growth, dilution of our culture and language by most of them coming from one ethnic group are undeniable facts. So to acknowledge these facts and object to their presence here is "dehumanizing" them? You pro-illegals always use strong words like "hate" and "racism" where it doesn't belong because you want to "dehumanize" loyal, law abiding Americans who want our borders and immigration laws respected. They should be excluded. They are here illegally.

As far as them being illegal criminals…laws are not an absolute judge of right and wrong and you guys know this. There have been plenty of laws in history and to this day that breaking does not make one such a horrible person.

They are all here illegally and that is all that matters. Every country has a right to immigration laws. It isn't about right or wrong. Again, with another one of your terms meant to demonize law abiding Americans with your term "horrible person" to make us look bad and place sympathy on the illegal aliens.


Corruption is fierce, violence is prevalent, and more importantly there are just no opportunities for you to make enough money to feed your family anymore (I know this is hard for you guys to grasp, but it’s the reality of some countries, and there’s no reason why it couldn’t happen here hundreds of years from now).

Most Mexicans aren't starving in their country. Doesn't matter anyway we cannot take in every "starving" person in the world or we will starve ourselves.

However, assume at the same time Mexico improves their politics and economy and is now booming. Technically, it’s illegal to migrate into Mexico without the proper documentation. However, it’s intentionally made quite lengthy and difficult to actually become fully authorized to work and live in Mexico. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for work and plenty of Americans decide to just migrate in there and take the jobs they can get. Otherwise, they could just let their American children be hungry and live with no opportunity for any type of social mobility. To me it sounds logical that so many Americans would make the risky trip to Mexico rather than suffer here.

Disagree. If the situation were reversed, I wouldn't advocate for Americans to violate Mexico's immigration laws either. I suggest that people stay in their own countries and fix them.

Are you guys seriously saying you would stay here and let your children suffer simply because it would make you a criminal to go work in Mexico?!? If so I question your parenting.


See above. Mexicans and other illegals that come here create many problems for their kid's futures by their illegal status. You think it makes a good parent to teach their kids to break the law? I question YOUR morals and scruples and your parenting ability and all those parents here illegally.

Especially if many of your children grow up to enter their universities and contribute strongly to their society…you would call your children criminals who don’t deserve to progress?

They can progress in their own countries and benefit their own countries.

Also consider that Mexico had historically contributed to the poor conditions here that fuel Americans into migrating into Mexico for work (ie, NAFTA today). I personally would hope Mexico would be more accommodating to helping us Americans in need. I think it would be ridiculous to call us criminals for just trying to work in their country. And if they complained about their hard earned tax money paying for our illegal living, that would just be extremely unfair, greedy, and sad of them.

Mexico has immigration laws even stricter than ours and they enforce them also. They have every right to do that without being called the names you mentioned.


I’m an American citizen who pays taxes (always has) just like you guys. I wonder why I don’t get so angry about my tax money apparently going to these undeserving, “criminal aliens.” I work in education so I obviously don’t make a lot of money, yet I don’t feel this selfish and greedy perception like immigrants are stealing my money.

Well these illegal aliens are stealing our tax dollars. Tell you what you take the burden on then by paying my share along with yours, ok? I don't feel it selfish and greedy to not want to support foreigners who thumb their noses at our laws rather than my taxes going to help my family and my fellow citizen's families.

I eat everyday, have a place to live, and even enough money to enjoy simple luxuries (go out to dinner at a restaurant, take a little vacation every once in a while, etc.). It’s truly absurd to believe that if one day I can’t afford these things it will be because of immigrants.

They aren't immigrants they are illegal aliens. When will you learn to know the difference?

Am I ignorant?

Well quite frankly, yes.


Is it bad of me to live in a city full of immigrants and not desire they all leave? Should I shift the injustices that I see in our society, and direct my disapproval at them? Are they in fact the true criminals I should be afraid of (rather than extremely powerful elites)?

Immigrants? You mean illegal aliens, don't you? No one is denying any injustices in our society. Having immigration laws and enforcing them is not one of them. Yes, there are other criminals besides illegal aliens. Who is denying that? Because there is that means they are a wash?

Am I not looking at my taxes closely enough to realize that these aliens are actually making my life miserable? Should I be more like you guys and live my life full of fear that criminal aliens are taking my money and committing all these crimes?

Try telling that to the millions of Americans who have lost a job to an illegal alien or had a loved one killed by an illegal alien and try to educate yourself on the actual costs of illegal immigration to our country.

What’s the difference between you guy and myself? Why do you think it does not fill me with anger to read about the kid who posted on here about being illegal and going to college, but it does for you guys? I’m wondering if I’m doing my children a disservice for teaching them to be more accepting of others rather than teaching them that they should be afraid of non-Americans who don’t have the proper pieces of paper to live around us.

I suggest you teach your kids respect for our laws instead of misplaced compassion for those who don't.


But if I did teach them the latter, I couldn’t help but feel hypocritical when answering them when they come home and ask why people used to hate Jews, Irish, Polish, Italians, Blacks, etc.

Ah, the race card. I wondered how long it would take you to pull it out of your wallet. Are you aware that Mexicans and other Latinos hold the second highest quotas for legal immigration into our country? This has nothing to do with hate since we have millions of legal/citizen Latinos in this country. It has everything to do with foreigners not respecting our immigration laws no matter where they are from.

On a side note, I suggest you make more paragraphs for clarity. It is hard to read something that rambles on sentence after sentence with no gramatically correct paragraphs. You should know this if you are truly in the education field.

Last edited by chicagonut; 11-21-2010 at 08:59 AM..
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