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Old 11-21-2010, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,872,249 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg1350 View Post
Sorry for assuming people on here tended not to be liberal. Glad you cleared up that conservatism is not popular here.

Don't you anti-unauthorized immigrants have anything in your arsenal aside from the legal/illegal rhetoric? That gets tiresome. And not a Freudian slip...I'm sure you're smart enough to know why I used the n-word.

And yes..FEAR..is the buzzword. It's the root of all of this. Laugh all you want in denial.

Yes...I am totally suggesting anarchy lol. What I think is unfair is people not having the proper opportunities for social mobility. If that could be provided for them here, then I don't mind them coming. Like I've said, why don't we stop hating the people who come here, but rather the people at the top who manipulate the opportunities for wealth and are essentially forcing people to come here? What they do is what is unfair yet we scape goat the ones who are powerless and easiest to scape goat.

And I didn't say the things you listed were a lack of accommodation. But if it were up to you, you'd wipe all those things out. You hate everything you listed. It's your attitude that could potentially use an readjustment toward accommodation. But of course not, because if you do, then they will all come in and ruin everything!!!!!...OOHHH NOOOO ATTACK OF THE ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!!!......FEAR

EDIT: Oh and I don't worry about my children going to jail. They learn to respect humanity and be good people. Perhaps they'll end up there for just causes, which I don't promote, but if they do, I can't be disappointed in them for it. Some of the greatest people in our history have ended up in jail fighting for what is right. Or rather than call them some of the greatest figures in our history, perhaps I should just call them criminals and end it at that.
Your interpretation of my first paragraph bears no resemblance to the message I attempted to convey. There is no preference for or against conservatism on this forum. You obviously missed my point.

Sorry, but immigration is either legal or illegal. There is no gray area. It’s similar to being a “little” pregnant, if you catch my drift.

I think you need to re-read your “nig***s” comment. I am sure you are smart enough to recognize your gaffe. If not, oh well.

There you go again “assuming.” I don’t “hate” illegal aliens. I simply want our laws enforced, and our borders secured. Does that signify hate? Furthermore, how are we obligated to accord “social mobility” to people whose mere presence is a violation of our laws? Please explain.

I don’t need an attitude adjustment. We have been more than generous to illegal aliens, yet it is never enough. You are the one who said we need to be more “accommodating” as if we “owe” illegals more. Perhaps you should clarify your position.

You are absolutely right. I would deny illegal aliens ALL benefits and services, with the exception of life-saving emergency medical care. Once stabilized, they would be summarily deported.

I can’t speak for you, but I do not consider illegal entry, ID theft, fraud, tax evasion, and parasitic behavior as being the characteristics of “good” people. Let’s not forget the illegal alien rapists, murderers, drug dealers, and pedophiles. You see, included among your “honorable” illegals is an ever-growing reprobate population. I suppose they too, are only seeking upward social mobility in the good ole USA.

By the way, your “all caps” melodramatic outburst adds nothing to the debate. I realize illegal immigration is an emotional issue, but let’s try to maintain some semblance of restraint.
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,201,355 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=crbcrbrgv;16737493]Perhaps this is because you choose to dishonor Hispanics. Perhaps this is because your side chooses to ignore the fact that Hispanics are lured here by businesses to work for a better life then are used as political pawns when conservatives are found out.

Dishonor Hispanics? Who is doing that? This is about illegal aliens, not Hispanics per se. Yes, and those businesses should be fined and the owners imprisoned. They had no right to lure illegal foreigners here to work if that is what they did. It is against the law.

Whose help are they supposed to ask for? Persons such as yourself? Persons who refuse to acknowledge that our country's unquenchable thirst for illegal drugs and cheap labor have caused this issue?

They shouldn't be asking for help after they get here. They should be applying to come here legally from their homelands. Those who thirst for cheap labor and drugs should be imprisoned for breaking our laws. Law abiding Americans are not defending greedy employers or drug users so what is your point?

And now that the people are here, you want to turn around and treat them as a commidity rather than people.

No, we just want them to return to their homelands where they belong. The majority of Americans who are law abiding didn't invite them here. Being human has nothing to do with it. If that were so, we wouldn't expect our own home grown criminals to pay for their lawbreaking.



I am married into a Mexican-American family that is by and large conservative. It is the attitudes of conservatives as of late that has flipped each and every one of the to Democrat. It is the way you so arrogantly say things such as, "Well, my ancestors came here legally on a boat" while conveninetly ignoring the fact that although technically illegal, these people have been aided and abetted by the United States for decades. Furthermore, many remained in the United States illegally despite being turned down at Ellis Island.

This isn't a conservative vs liberal issue. It is about the laws of our country and our soveirgn borders. These illegals have been aided and abetted by non-law abiding Americans not the majority who are law abiding. The people alive around Ellis Island time are mostly all dead now. Why are you crying to us about them? We aren't them and they aren't us. Are you implying that we only care about illegal immigration of today? You would be wrong but there is nothing we can do about the past.

Can you prove your ancestors don't fall into this category?

If they did, would they admit it?

Yes, I can but why should I have to anyway? I am not my ancestors, I am me and I was born here. Why the constant referral to the past? It has nothing to do with today.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:57 PM
 
4 posts, read 4,124 times
Reputation: 10
I can't continue this with you fearful, angry sillys. We seem to be misunderstanding each other and we obviously are going to get nowhere. I am too ignorant to see the great harm that unauthorized immigrants are creating upon me and the rest of my fellow great law abiding Americans. And you are too ignorant to expand your understanding of this from a bigger picture...and a more humanistic one as well.

To be honest, things don't look too good for your side of the battle. So best of luck in your quest to protect our nation from the illegal aliens. Watch Will Smith in Independence Day for some tips on how to do it. And try not burst too many veins or spread too much hate in the process. On the bright side, many of these aliens will likely one day be granted legal status...when that day comes we will all be legal Americans and our illegal immigration problem will be over (and we won't look at the fact that they crossed here illegally in the past, because, as you guys say, it's pointless to look at the past)!

Fear on my friends! We American victims will overcome!!

I'm going to go have dinner now. Probably cooked deliciously by an illegal Ecuadorian alien...mmm mmmm!!!


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Old 11-21-2010, 07:17 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,201,355 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=eg1350;1673690

You really choose to not look beyond that huh? Ok, so say the pro-illegals get their way and provide all the illegals with citizenship....end of the problem right? They will then be legal and that seems to be all you care about right?

[B]Is there some logical reason to look beyond our immigration laws that are fair and just and in the best interests of our country and its citizens? No, legalization of these millions of illegal aliens would only be the beginning of bigger problems. [/b]

The next batch of illegals would be jumping our borders waiting for their turn. That's what happens when you reward lawlessness. We don't have the jobs and resources to accomodate those already here illegally. We don't need the added population growth and the ensuing daisy chain of extended family members in their homelands that they could sponsor with citizenship.


Did you know it was once illegal for black people to be free? Are you aware of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850? If black people escaped slavery, an officer, even in the north, was required by law to arrest the blacks to have them sent back to their plantation and be beaten..maybe killed. So do you believe these black slaves who escaped deserved to be treated like criminals? And, therefore, they legitimately should not have attempted freedom because it was against the law? Their only chance at freedom was migrating to Canada or Mexico, so do you think that made them unlawful criminals to go into these foreign countries? If you were a Canadian mountie would you have sent any African American slave right back to the States and suggested they fix their problem at home?

Again, you are comparing illegal immigration today to our black citizens who were treated unfairly back then. Why is that? Citizens and illegal aliens aren't even in the same ballpark. Most of those coming here illegally are not refugees. You keep comparing apples to oranges here.

I'm sure this is not truly just about them being legal or illegal. Again, if all of them were rewarded amnesty (lets also say that part of the amnesty deal was that all the ones who came here illegally had to pay a fee - say $6000 - as part of their citizenship granting) and the borders were opened for more to come legally, I'm sure you would still have a problem.

It IS about legal vs illegal. Why can't you get that through your head? We cannot grant blanket legalization regardless of any fees paid because we would first have to determine if we need these people. We have millions of Americans out of work. We would have to determine if we have jobs and resources to support these people. We would have to consider population growth. What about all the potential immigrants waiting to come here the legal way? Should we just forget about them? What about diversity? Legalization would benefit mostly one ethnic group. Unfortunately, those pushing amnesty today in congress are not considering any of the above.


I almost choked at reading that last sentence. I understand that this isn't about you hating Latino people or Chinese people, per se. You hate illegal people. But what makes them the "other" is that they were not born in the USA. Therefore, they are not entitled to the opportunities that us USA-born or those USA-declared citizens have. You hate these "others" because you fear the negative impact they will have on your life...so yes there is a fear of the "other."

Again, with your use of the word hate. I have never said I hated illegals so why do you continue on with that? Why shouldn't all Americans fear a negative impact on their lives by "others" who have no right to be here?

Yes, I understand they used to be able to just come in and become authorized citizens with no problem, while today, becoming authorized is far more difficult. However, though they were legal immigrants back then, they were still considered as "others" and they were greatly feared the way you fear today's "others." And they were feared for the same reasons you fear today's "others." So that's the comparison...that people always find a scapegoat to fear and hate. You are doing it today. And people have always felt their hate and fear was justified compared to the ones of the past or other societies....same way you do.

Again, about the past. Perhaps some legal immigrants were discriminated against back then but that has nothing to do with today nor illegal immigration today. If I wanted to fear and hate I don't need to look for scapegoats. Who in the world looks for something to fear and hate anyway? They aren't exactly pleasant emotions. You are just demonizing law abiding Americans with words like that because you can't justify your anti-American stances.


The stats on the positive impact of unauthorized immigration is out there for you to read as well. I can recommend plenty of literature for you, but I'm sure you know about it. I remember the New York Times had a cover story not too long ago on a study of the positive economic impact of immigration (including illegal). I personally hold more valid the studies in academic journals, which have shown the same thing, as well as data on the far less likelihood of illegal immigrants to commit crimes than U.S. citizens. Let me guess, though, that stuff is bias right? But your sources are not, of course. Perhaps it's a matter of looking at the glass as half empty or half full? I'm glad you and I were born and raised in the same country yet I don't live with the anxiety you do. Some just choose to live in fear and anger I suppose.

Not only do I use viable stats but government ones also. I also use common sense and the rule of law. Apparently you don't. I have no anxiety. I just believe that people should respect the laws of our country. I also don't live in fear or anger. Just more demonizing on your part of a law abiding American. It gets old after awhile.

As far as dehumanizing, the fact that you insist on calling them "aliens" is kind of dehumanizing wouldn't you say? Or are aliens human? So for crossing a border illegally, they are no longer referred to as humans, but rather as aliens? You do know that these types of names have always been used in history as a psychological means of dehumanization right (ie, Tutsi's in Rwanda as "cockroaches")?

Try looking up the word "alien" in the dictionary. It means foreigner. Ever heard of the term "resident alien"? Is that dehumanizing calling a foreigner a foreigner? They are alien humans aka foreigner humans. Got it now? Cockroaches have nothing to do with the word "alien" or humans.



It seems that's where we differ. I think beyond legal and illegal, for there have been many things that were once considered legal and illegal, and in retrospect should not have been. To me it is about right and wrong.

You can't just disrespect our immigration laws just because you think differently or don't like them. Comparing laws from the past or present that might be considered wrong by some aren't a good analogy comparison to our immigration laws because they are very fair. Every country has them. In fact, we have the most generous legal immigration policies in the world.

And I'm not demonizing law abiding Americans. I'm a law abiding American and know plenty of others, who the things I'm saying here does not apply to. But that's great that everyone who is anti-illegals here follows every single American law and is so law abiding.

Yes you are demonizing Americans who want our immigration laws enforced. Do the words "hate, fear, anger" ring a bell? Americans aren't perfect. No one is claiming that they are but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the right to expect our immigration laws to be respected and enforced.


Do you honestly believe that living conditions are not an issue in third world, or newly industrialized countries?!? But since most people are not "starving," and they do eat some type of food, lets just say starving for opportunity. If you're worried about us starving ourselves from too many people coming here, have you considered re-directing all this passion for justice that you have? Why not direct it toward the small elite in our country who exploit and preserve the majority of the worlds wealth and resources, and are thus fueling so many people to come here for opportunity? You go after the people with the least amount of power, but ultimately it's those with a great amount of power that create such disparities of opportunity wouldn't you say?

Get a clue. We anti-illegals are holding the greedy employers and our government just as accountable as the illegals themselves. This is another tactic that you pro-illegal use claiming that we don't. We hold all three equally guilty. The pro-illegals however don't want to put any blame on the illegals at all though. They act like they are children who just can't help what they do and everyone else is to blame but them.

If that's what you believe you would do, I can't call you a liar. But I think you may have an inability to truly grasp the actual living conditions in other parts of the world. Trust me, the problems they create for their kids futures by their illegal status here is nothing compared to the problems they would experience in their own country. And considering those conditions, teaching their kids to break a border crossing law is in my opinion well justified. I don't see them as criminals, I see them as humans taking reasonable risks to provide better lives for their children.

I am only going to give you one warning. Do not ever call me a liar again or any other insulting names. It is against the rules of this forum and you will be reported! I don't care what the living conditions are elsewhere. Their citizens need to fix their own countries. We already give generously to other countries and have very generous legal immigration policies. We cannot save the entire world without destroying ourselves.

Never should parents teach their kids to break "just" laws and that is what you are advocating. Never should kids be taught to take from others what is not theirs.

Stay in their own countries and fix them..Haha. It's hard enough for you and I to fix our own highly industrialized democratic country. Go tell all those severely impoverished people in third world countries to use their political power and education to fix their country.....oh wait, they've been deprived of those things from the moment they were born. Well whatever, fix it! Otherwise if you come here, I'm going to lose my job and home, and people won't speak English, and you're going to kill my family...because that's what immigrants who cross illegally do, as opposed to everyone else.

Not our problem what third world countries do. They'll have to figure out solutions to their own problems. We do all we can to help them but we have to draw the line when it comes to making our own citizens suffer for it. Yes, many Americans have lost their jobs due to illegal immigration and you are ok with that? I never said that all illegal aliens kill Americans. Now you are exaggerating to demonize again. However, one death caused by an illegal alien is one death too much as they shouldn't be here in the first place. We have our own home grown criminals to deal with.


One final time, in case you are truly that ignorant to the world outside of the USA ...NO THEY CANNOT. People love their homelands. If they could, they would much rather stay there than come to a place where they are marginalized and completely unfamiliar with. They come because they literally cannot progress in their own countries, and therefore do not have the means to benefit their own countries. And foreign practices by the USA have historically contributed to that.

I am ignorant? FYI, I am a senior citizen. I have been around for some time now. Yes, they can fix their own countries, they just choose the easy way out instead and jump our borders. Stop blaming the U.S. for their problems.


Mexico does a lot of things wrong.

It's wrong for Mexico to have immigration laws and to enforce them?


I'm not convinced you truly need me to pay your share. I pay my taxes and you pay yours, and I'm sure we both live decently comfortable at the end of it. However, if they decided to hike my taxes to help fund the re-creation of the Harlem Children Zone in various other impoverished communities in the country, I would be ok with that. Because it's going to help those with less opportunity. Plus, you are exaggerating how much of your tax dollars unauthorized immigrants are stealing, while not considering some economic benefits from their presence.

I don't need to convince you of anything. Everyone who isn't clueless knows that illegal aliens are affecting our bottom line. The negatives way outweigh any so-called positives. I have no problem giving to charity that supports Americans and others across the world but I don't want my taxes going to support those who had no respect for our laws.


True. So they've killed innocent people's loved ones because they are unauthorized immigrants. That's what unauthroized immigrants do right? So yeah I guess people should fear and hate unauthorized immigrants. I'm going to start hating my fellow White folks for all their law breaking and horrific crimes against humanity they've committed. That's what White people do right?

Again, no one is saying that all illegal aliens do that. Stop your own exaggerating. Why are you bringing race into this issue? Illegal aliens are of all races. Who is "hating" anyway? Because you said so?

And who should we hold accountable for the millions of foreigners who have lost work due to American foreign policies? Did you vote for George Bush senior? If so, perhaps all the people affected by his global policies should fear and hate you?

If you are referring to NAFTA. It negatively impacted American jobs also. We regular Americans don't get to vote on such matters anyway. So we should be held accountable for our government's poor decisions by allowing millions of illegal aliens to invade our country? I don't think so! I voted for neither Bushs'. Again, with this stupid fear and hate BS. Get a new line. This one is getting old

"Misplaced compassion"...oh lord.

Yes, when you show compassion for illegal lawbreakers rather than your own fellow Americans your compassion is "misplaced".

I wasn't at all suggesting hate of Latinos. Where did I even say that? I wasn't pulling a race card, but was simply talking about fear and hate of people (all people) we deem to not belong. You can stand behind the whole legal/illegal dichotomy all you want, but it goes beyond that. I already discussed why earlier so won't get into it again. You need a scape goat to fear and hate...and now it is the "illegal alien"...I get it...it's nothing new.

Again, with the fear and hate BS. This is about objection to illegal immigration based on our "just" laws. One can't do that without fear and hate?


Man you guys really are sensitive to a lot of things huh? Well it's a good thing I'm not an English or grammar teacher. Thanks for the suggestion.


I don't normally comment on grammar and spelling but when one claims they are in the education field and can't make correct paragraphs it is hard not to say something.


I'll consider taking your other advice and start hating my fellow unauthorized immigrants too. It's so much better to fear and hate people who come here for some of the opportunities I've been blessed to be born into rather than to understand and accept them.

I never advised you to hate anyone nor do I hate anyone contrary to your false accusations of me in here just because you lost the argument long ago. I accept legal immigrants with open arms. We have no moral obligation to accept illegal ones who don't follow the rules and no obligation to destroy our own country for these millions of illegal invaders.

I don't think it is possible for you to keep things civil in here and I think we have exhausted any meaningfull debate. You are a hard core illegal alien sympathizer and it has been my experience that there is no reaching people like you. Obviously, you have tunnel vision for our country and no compassion for your fellow Americans who have had to bear the brunt of this invasion and no respect for our immigration laws. Have a good life!

Last edited by chicagonut; 11-21-2010 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,995,832 times
Reputation: 3084
Hmmmm...............the legal official term for someone in this country who is a non citizen is "alien", as a LEGAL immigrant the USA govt classifies me as a REGISTERED ALIEN............oh nooooooooooooooooes, I feel so "dehumanized" (not)

Those non citizens in this country NOT here legally are classified as ILLEGAL ALIENS - duh
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Old 11-21-2010, 10:58 PM
 
220 posts, read 330,430 times
Reputation: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellyouknow View Post
There you have it, folks. Zing. The arrogance and complete disrespect for the laws of this country in full display.

With a touch of a magic wand they will be able to call themselves American. We, the citizens have no say and 'just have to deal with it'.

There is no magic wand. These young future Americans will have to meet the requirements... military service or college degree.

You like every other American has freedom of speech. Sooner or later the Dream Act will pass, if you choose not to accept that... too bad for you.
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Phoenix,Arizona
3,820 posts, read 4,544,645 times
Reputation: 3753
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodneighbor1234 View Post
There is no magic wand. These young future Americans will have to meet the requirements... military service or college degree.

You like every other American has freedom of speech. Sooner or later the Dream Act will pass, if you choose not to accept that... too bad for you.
Ya think

Why then have most of them not become citizens by now
but have no problem working the system

The check book is closed but the government will accept
all of the donations you send



The 23rd Psalm of the undocumented immigrant:

Obama is my shepherd; That I shall not want. He allows my children to attend your schools; he leads me to the ACORN office. He gives me WIC commodities
...for my kids, he moves me to the head of the unemployment line.

Yea, though I cross through holes in the border fence, I will not fear immigration agents or Border Patrol; For Obama protects me and the democratic party and the liberals comfort me. Sanctuary cities protect me from Nazi, racist conservatives. Obama gives citizenship to my newborns; My uninsured and unregistered pickup truck and work van run on ... See More your roads.

All of my amigos and familia will follow me across the border for all eternity and we will dwell, 4 to 5 families per home in section 8 housing, forever. Amen.
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,995,832 times
Reputation: 3084
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodneighbor1234 View Post
There is no magic wand. These young future Americans will have to meet the requirements... military service or college degree.

You like every other American has freedom of speech. Sooner or later the Dream Act will pass, if you choose not to accept that... too bad for you.
No more amnesties - the Dream Act will NOT pass, not now and not later - learn to deal with it.
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:57 AM
 
220 posts, read 330,430 times
Reputation: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouser View Post
Ya think

Why then have most of them not become citizens by now
but have no problem working the system
.

Do you really think these kids would not have applied to be citizens if it were possible? There is no avenue for them to become citizens.

If they could the Dream Act would not be neccessary. How cynical of you.
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Old 11-22-2010, 02:08 AM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,164 posts, read 26,749,999 times
Reputation: 6452
Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
NO, they're not immigrants, they are UNDOCUMENTED immigrants.
Many of them are falsely documented immigrants. I just refer to them as illegal aliens because that's what they are.
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