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Old 11-16-2010, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
You keep applying that backwards logic. They weren't subjected to search and detainment because they were known to be in the presence of criminals. The knowledge of the criminals was the OUTCOME of the search, not the PROBABLE CAUSE legally validating the search and detainment of these US citizens. You just seem to think that the ends justify the means. What's next - door to door house searches in Spanish speaking neighborhoods?

As to drinking, if I were sobber (perhaps the designated driver) yet arrested along with a group of drunk people (whether my buddies or not), I'd be furious. I'd file a complaint and strongly consider a law suit.
No I actually read the article. The ICE agents reacted to what they felt was reasonable cause. Given the results I believe that they demonstrated that they actually knew their jobs.
You on the other hand are using a logic that would suggest that you feel they simply picked on hispanic people for no other reason. The agents spoke fluent spanish, listened to the conversations and gleemed enough to suspect these people were illegals. Obviously they were correct. There can be no debate that they were right. At least 36 times.
My logic stands. If I don't want to be treated like a criminal then perhaps I shouldn't surround myself with such.
There is more to this story. Why were 36 illegals on a single bus?
Why was Amway hosting 36 illegals?
How did the 6 legal citizens end up on such a bus?
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:51 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,722,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
If genuine, a CO state issued ID card does.......



Now whether that proves lawful residency in the USA, rather than just Co, I don't know.
I understand your points (things can be faked - states sometimes give IDs without proof of legal authority to be in the US). However, in the US we afford people the presumption of innocence and we forbid the government from searching (and or course detaining) without probable cause.

Again, the issue here is did the government have probable cause to search these people. From all the information available, the probable cause was that they were speaking Spanish and were clothed in a manner that suggested travel - although the complaint points out that "the (ICE) report provides no details to explain what Minze (the ICE agent) meant by 'the dress of the individuals'".

I hate to think that speaking Spanish and dressing in a certain way is enough probable cause to give the US Government the authority to stop and question me, and even then detain me after I produce a valid, government issued, state ID upon request

I often go out-and-about without my ID. If I don't need my wallet, I generally don't take. There's no law in the US requiring people to carry ID (there's not even any requirement that you HAVE an ID). I guess I should be very careful not to speak Spanish and wear comfortable travel clothes on these occasions. Who knows how long I'll end up spending at a Homeland Security Detention Center trying to prove I'm here legally.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
I understand your points (things can be faked - states sometimes give IDs without proof of legal authority to be in the US). However, in the US we afford people the presumption of innocence and we forbid the government from searching (and or course detaining) without probable cause.

Again, the issue here is did the government have probable cause to search these people. From all the information available, the probable cause was that they were speaking Spanish and were clothed in a manner that suggested travel - although the complaint points out that "the (ICE) report provides no details to explain what Minze (the ICE agent) meant by 'the dress of the individuals'".

I hate to think that speaking Spanish and dressing in a certain way is enough probable cause to give the US Government the authority to stop and question me, and even then detain me after I produce a valid, government issued, state ID upon request

I often go out-and-about without my ID. If I don't need my wallet, I generally don't take. There's no law in the US requiring people to carry ID (there's not even any requirement that you HAVE an ID). I guess I should be very careful not to speak Spanish and wear comfortable travel clothes on these occasions. Who knows how long I'll end up spending at a Homeland Security Detention Center trying to prove I'm here legally.
Once again you are relying upon the lawyers complaint and not on the actual evidence or testimony of the agents.
I am certain during the trial we will find out the rest of the story. As it is we only have 1 side. The side coming from people who were in the company of 36 illegals.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:57 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,722,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
No I actually read the article. The ICE agents reacted to what they felt was reasonable cause. Given the results I believe that they demonstrated that they actually knew their jobs.
You on the other hand are using a logic that would suggest that you feel they simply picked on hispanic people for no other reason. The agents spoke fluent spanish, listened to the conversations and gleemed enough to suspect these people were illegals. Obviously they were correct. There can be no debate that they were right. At least 36 times.
My logic stands. If I don't want to be treated like a criminal then perhaps I shouldn't surround myself with such.
There is more to this story. Why were 36 illegals on a single bus?
Why was Amway hosting 36 illegals?
How did the 6 legal citizens end up on such a bus?
Nobody here is questioning that there were criminal aliens on that bus. That fact, however, has ZERO/ZILCH/NADA to do with the legality of the search and detainment and lack of probable cause.

I'm all for deporting every last person who's here in this country illegally. I just don't want to shred our Constitution, our values, and the freedoms designed to protect us from tyrannical government in the process.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Nobody here is questioning that there were criminal aliens on that bus. That fact, however, has ZERO/ZILCH/NADA to do with the legality of the search and detainment and lack of probable cause.

I'm all for deporting every last person who's here in this country illegally. I just don't want to shred our Constitution, our values, and the freedoms designed to protect us from tyrannical government in the process.
And we don't know that the constitution was violated. We only know what the ACLU has claimed.
They also claim that pedophiles have a right to swap pictures.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:13 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
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If I'm spending the day with a busload of blonde people who just happen to be wanted for fire-bombing a the Lady Clairol plant, chances are that I'll go to jail right along with the rest of them, regardless of whether or not I had anything to do with the crime that was committed--at least until I'm sorted out from the rest of the blonde people that actually had it in for the pseudo blondes.

Hang out with criminals and you're going to be treated like one.

'Nuff said.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Nobody here is questioning that there were criminal aliens on that bus. That fact, however, has ZERO/ZILCH/NADA to do with the legality of the search and detainment and lack of probable cause.

I'm all for deporting every last person who's here in this country illegally. I just don't want to shred our Constitution, our values, and the freedoms designed to protect us from tyrannical government in the process.
Clearly, we do not have all of the details. However, I am sure ICE has bigger fish to fry than Spanish-speaking diners.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,287,998 times
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Before 9/11 we problably would not have made a big deal of this, but 9/11 did happen and we we know things have drastically changed.

How many of you just curious will be on a bus with 36 illegals, not me. By chance, who will ever know, more to meet the eye on this one. We will just have to see.

Better still to be safe then sorry.

Your with someone who is doing the crime, you too would be picked up.
Only doing their jobs, or would you rather they just let them go.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:23 PM
 
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
3,858 posts, read 5,959,040 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
We don’t know what transpired in the restaurant. ICE could have overheard them discussing their stolen IDs or other unlawful acts, and did in fact have probable cause.
That's my take. The Spanish speaking agents overheard something that made them suspicious.
Quote:
I’m with tinman. Why was Amway transporting a busload of illegals?
Maybe it's a 'job' that doesn't require ID... but most Amway members don't make enough to make it full time job - and spend way too much on motivational aids.
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Old 11-16-2010, 08:26 PM
 
2,086 posts, read 2,102,404 times
Reputation: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
"Two American citizens detained and searched in April by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents filed a legal claim against the agency Monday alleging ethnic stereotyping and racial profiling...The claim — which alleges false arrest, false imprisonment and battery — is a precursor to a federal lawsuit."

"When the chartered bus stopped at the McDonald's, an ICE agent also was eating there. The agent became suspicious because of how the passengers were dressed and because they were speaking Spanish, according to an ICE report...The agents boarded the bus, asked passengers to produce identification, and searched their wallets and purses. Bautista and Artimas showed the agents their Colorado state identification cards, and then they were searched and placed in a cell at a detention center. Bautista was fingerprinted and his mugshot was taken. 'I felt like they were treating me like a criminal,' Bautista said. 'When I told them I was born in the U.S., they told me I was a liar.' While Bautista was in a cell, the agents high-fived each other, he said. 'They said we were a bunch of Mexicans and we were bothering Americans,' Artimas said. About two hours later, Bautista and Artimas were let go."

"If this was a bus full of white people speaking French, would they have called in the goons and searched the bus?" asked Hans Meyer, an ACLU cooperating attorney who is representing the two."


Two Americans file claim over questioning by ICE agent - The Denver Post



What a disgusting act by the government. I hope these two win a big settlement.



What, they can't speak English, if they were born here, they should be able to speak English. This is them just trying to whine about nothing. Get more free money. Who cares if they had ID, it could have been fake. Have you thought of that?
Each time I go to Canada, I get detained. I don't sue anyone. People are just pathetic.
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