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Old 11-17-2010, 02:40 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,722,724 times
Reputation: 4828

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I thought I did explain. If you are in the company of criminals during their apprehension, you are treated as an accomplice.
You're backtracking. You originally said they WERE criminal accomplices (active participants in a crime). Now you're saying they weren't, but were justifiably treated as criminals because some of the other passengers on the bus turned out to be criminals. Make up your mind.

Again, I'll point out the illogicalness of your position. You claim the treatment of these two innocent people (their search and arrest) was legal and deserved because they were near actual criminals. That presupposes the agents KNEW there were actual criminals on the bus. Knowing there were criminal aliens on the bus was a RESULT of the commandeering and detainment of the bus and all it's occupants - including the innocent. It was not the REASON these innocent people were searched and detained.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

However, even that point is moot. Even if these agents KNEW before the search that some passengers on the bus were illegal aliens, they still could not have searched these two innocent people. It has been clearly decided in US case law that association with known criminals IS NOT SUFFICIENT probable cause for a search.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It’s just that simple. Do you honestly believe the citizens did not realize they were cavorting with criminal aliens?
I have no clue. They could have been on the bus with 38 complete strangers. It doesn't matter though. None of that has any bearing on the legality of the search and detainment. (I mean, come on. A cop can't walk into Denny's and say "those 4 men at that booth look like criminals to me" and then use that as probably cause to drag everybody in the restaurant down to jail to be investigated).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Why aren’t they being charged?
Well, they're not being charged with anything because they committed no crime whatsoever. Even if they did know the legal status of any of their fellow passengers, they weren't engaged in transportation. They were transporting NOBODY. They were fellow passengers. If I'm on the train from DC to New York and somehow find out the guy next to me is in the country illegally, that doesn't make me a felon guilty to transporting illegal aliens - that just makes me a guy sitting next to one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Why aren’t the illegal passengers being deported?
Generally it wouldn't bother me one bit if these criminals were deported. However, the government can't act on information obtained illegally (such as this illegal search). This is about the only instance I'd argue they shouldn't be deported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Why isn’t the bus driver charged with transporting illegal aliens (a felony)?
Because if you read the statute it's says "knowing". This driver was hired by a US company to drive people to and from a conference. I don't imagine Amway called him up and said "We've got a bunch of illegal aliens we need you to take from Denver to Omaha". Even if they did say so, I doubt they recorded it. Good luck proving "knowing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Why isn’t Amway being investigated for employing illegal aliens? The answer is simple. Our laws are not being enforced.
How do you know they're not? Generally, I'd be all for raking Amway over the coals if it turns out these criminal aliens are Amway employees and that Amway hired them knowing this. However, again, the government can't act on illegally obtained information.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:21 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 2,921,016 times
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Unfortunately, I think this is just a sad case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not believe it merits a lawsuit. If I'm cavorting in a night club and the NYPD busts into the place based on allegations of probable underage drinking, we are ALL going to be gathered up, tossed in a wagon and taken to the precinct while our individual ID's are processed and verified. And wait we will. There are numerous other scenarios where something similar can possible happen. Call me crazy, but that's why I am always aware of my surroundings and generally what is going on around me.

The lawsuit has no merit.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:38 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,085,289 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
Unfortunately, I think this is just a sad case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not believe it merits a lawsuit. If I'm cavorting in a night club and the NYPD busts into the place based on allegations of probable underage drinking, we are ALL going to be gathered up, tossed in a wagon and taken to the precinct while our individual ID's are processed and verified. And wait we will. There are numerous other scenarios where something similar can possible happen. Call me crazy, but that's why I am always aware of my surroundings and generally what is going on around me.

The lawsuit has no merit.
How about the officer asking to see your I.D. to verify your age? wouldn't that work?
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:44 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 2,921,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
How about the officer asking to see your I.D. to verify your age? wouldn't that work?
In the scenario I painted, more than likley not. We are all well aware of the forged ID's used by under-age, young adults. When raids such as these happen, it is a general round up, a trip to precinct, verification of the ID and then freedom.

But my Texan friend, to be quite honest with you - one look at the many wrinkles on my face and I believe the NYPD officer would have concrete evidence of my right to have a cocktail or two!
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,946,003 times
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36 of the 42 were found to be here illegally - that leaves 6 who were legal yet only these TWO have filed a claim................Interesting. I wonder why the other 4 don't feel their rights have been violated?
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
You're backtracking. You originally said they WERE criminal accomplices (active participants in a crime). Now you're saying they weren't, but were justifiably treated as criminals because some of the other passengers on the bus turned out to be criminals. Make up your mind.

Again, I'll point out the illogicalness of your position. You claim the treatment of these two innocent people (their search and arrest) was legal and deserved because they were near actual criminals. That presupposes the agents KNEW there were actual criminals on the bus. Knowing there were criminal aliens on the bus was a RESULT of the commandeering and detainment of the bus and all it's occupants - including the innocent. It was not the REASON these innocent people were searched and detained.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

However, even that point is moot. Even if these agents KNEW before the search that some passengers on the bus were illegal aliens, they still could not have searched these two innocent people. It has been clearly decided in US case law that association with known criminals IS NOT SUFFICIENT probable cause for a search.
There is no backtracking. If you re-read my post, you will clearly see that I said “criminal accomplices.” I have not changed my position. I cannot be convinced that they did not know the immigration status of their associates. Again, they were in the company of known criminals, and said criminals were apprehended. Therefore, they are aptly considered accomplices.

Quote:
In law, the accomplice is an individual who is actually present at the scene of the crime but does not actually carry out the crime.
Accomplice - Criminal Law Lawyer Source

Without being privy to the ICE report, we don’t know what prompted the search. You are assuming the citizens were unfairly targeted, without any credible evidence. The ICE agents were well within their rights to question each passenger on the bus. Otherwise, how could a determination be made as to who is or isn’t illegal?

You have essentially tried and convicted the agents. Have you even permitted yourself to consider the possibility that the agents had probable cause, and that these passengers said or did something incriminating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
I have no clue. They could have been on the bus with 38 complete strangers. It doesn't matter though. None of that has any bearing on the legality of the search and detainment. (I mean, come on. A cop can't walk into Denny's and say "those 4 men at that booth look like criminals to me" and then use that as probably cause to drag everybody in the restaurant down to jail to be investigated).
Wthout a shred of evidence to substantiate your position, you are assuming ICE did not have probable cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Well, they're not being charged with anything because they committed no crime whatsoever. Even if they did know the legal status of any of their fellow passengers, they weren't engaged in transportation. They were transporting NOBODY. They were fellow passengers. If I'm on the train from DC to New York and somehow find out the guy next to me is in the country illegally, that doesn't make me a felon guilty to transporting illegal aliens - that just makes me a guy sitting next to one.
Again, you don’t know the details of this investigation. For all you know, the citizens could be members of a document fraud ring, or other unlawful behavior to aid and abet illegals. How do you know they are innocent? Without evidence, it’s purely conjecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Generally it wouldn't bother me one bit if these criminals were deported. However, the government can't act on information obtained illegally (such as this illegal search). This is about the only instance I'd argue they shouldn't be deported.
Again, what proof do you have that the search was conducted in an illegal manner? Please share your evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Because if you read the statute it's says "knowing". This driver was hired by a US company to drive people to and from a conference. I don't imagine Amway called him up and said "We've got a bunch of illegal aliens we need you to take from Denver to Omaha". Even if they did say so, I doubt they recorded it. Good luck proving "knowing".
How do you know the bus driver did not “knowingly” transport illegal aliens? Illegal immigration is a lucrative business. Money talks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
How do you know they're not? Generally, I'd be all for raking Amway over the coals if it turns out these criminal aliens are Amway employees and that Amway hired them knowing this. However, again, the government can't act on illegally obtained information.
It wasn’t mentioned. However, they certainly should be investigated. After all, they are employing illegal aliens. It’s possible they are employing them unknowingly. Regardless, the company should be required to conduct an audit, and fire all illegal employees.

The bottom line: Until this case is tried, and all of the details are disclosed, we can only speculate. Therefore, we are both entitled to our opinion.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
36 of the 42 were found to be here illegally - that leaves 6 who were legal yet only these TWO have filed a claim................Interesting. I wonder why the other 4 don't feel their rights have been violated?
Yes, interesting indeed. I would expect such blatant violations to warrant a class action lawsuit.
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,946,003 times
Reputation: 3083
Okay - as I've stated before - these were NOT "employees" of Amway. The two filing the claim are what is known as IBO, Independent Business Operators (aka distributors) for Amway. Obviously these two however would have had to know their little flock of potential Amway converts were illegals.

Quote:
Amway said in a statement that the company does not know all of the facts of the case, and that "it would be inappropriate for us to comment" on the complaint.

"Amway has, for more than 50 years, offered an equal opportunity to entrepreneurial individuals looking to build their own independent businesses. We remain absolutely committed to this," the statement said. "In this case, the ACLU is representing the interests of two individual independent business owners, not Amway."


ACLU: ICE Illegally Arrested Spanish-Speaking Amway Group - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:35 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,722,724 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
There is no backtracking. If you re-read my post, you will clearly see that I said “criminal accomplices.” I have not changed my position. I cannot be convinced that they did not know the immigration status of their associates. Again, they were in the company of known criminals, and said criminals were apprehended. Therefore, they are aptly considered accomplices.

Quote:
In law, the accomplice is an individual who is actually present at the scene of the crime but does not actually carry out the crime.


Accomplice - Criminal Law Lawyer Source
LOL. Seriously???? Did you not read your own link???? Here's how it actually defines criminal accomplice:

"An accomplice is an individual who participates in the commission of a crime knowingly, willingly, and with common interest. An accomplice is one who intentionally aids in the commission of a crime ".

An accomplice is not someone who is simply present at the scene of a crime like you seem to think your link indicates (that person is generally called a bystander or sometime a witness).

Again, what crime were these two "knowingly, willingly, and with common interest" participating in?" Why have they not been charged with that crime?

I think I'm done engaging you in this conversation. You're clearly a disingenuous misinformer.
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:39 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,722,724 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
36 of the 42 were found to be here illegally - that leaves 6 who were legal yet only these TWO have filed a claim................Interesting. I wonder why the other 4 don't feel their rights have been violated?
They're probably ignorant of their rights (many, perhaps a majority, of Americans are). Either that or they just don't care enough to make it an issue.
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