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Old 07-19-2007, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Northeast
1,298 posts, read 2,365,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamluk View Post
china and india are one of the must cultural countries that u can find, in india for example there is around one hundred religiones, several languages. china has many different religiones and also in china there are many races that make up the chinese mosaic, just check wikipedia.
That's not culture. That's language and religion. They still live the same way for the most part.

We had the same thing here. In CT, a long sandwich is a "wedge". In NY, it's a "hero", in Jersey it's a "hoagie". In NY you get a "bag" for your groceries, in GA you get a "sack". In NY we have liars and businessmen, in Texas they have politicians and clergymen. Ok, that was just for humor, lol, but you get what I mean.

~T
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,915,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
I don't think any nation, including the US, is required to be multicultural. But many are becoming so due to the lack of border security. The United States, France, England and even Germany somewhat have had their cultures eroded to a large degree because of illegal immigration. In the US, it's the fact that many US citizens themselves don't value American culture, so they turn a blind eye to the fact that we have tens of millions of people here that don't belong here. Other nations like Japan, China and the others that have been mentioned, value their own culture, and these nations protect their beliefs and culture with laws that are enforced.
Illegal immigration exists in these countries. However - most immigrants in these countries are legal. Americans and to an even greater extent Europeans, let these immigrants in, not out of the goodness of their hearts and their judeo-christian traditions, but much more pragmatically, they are no longer having kids, they are all growing older, and they need grunts to keep their economies moving.
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:34 PM
 
91 posts, read 229,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Illegal immigration exists in these countries. However - most immigrants in these countries are legal. Americans and to an even greater extent Europeans, let these immigrants in, not out of the goodness of their hearts and their judeo-christian traditions, but much more pragmatically, they are no longer having kids, they are all growing older, and they need grunts to keep their economies moving.
While I agree in principle with what you are saying, I just want to point
something out. According to Merriam-Webster, here is a definition of grunt:
a United States army or marine foot soldier especially in the Vietnam
War b : one who does routine unglamorous work -- often used
attributively


While most immigrants you refer to (probably illegal) would be required
for the grunt work, what we really require for our own future are
the cream of the crop from other countries. People like Enrico
Fermi (an Italian), or Count Wernher von Braun (German) who were
key figures in our atomic weapons and space programs. More recently,
I would advise looking at the founders or key people in silicon
valley companies such as Yahoo, Google, Amazon, Ebay and the
like. Intel, Microsoft and Cisco are full of Indians and Chinese.

But the unfortunate trend is that with improving economic conditions
in their home countries, they are leaving in hordes (perhaps looking
for their own culture). This is not a good trend for us as retaining such
people is key to our own economic prosperity. Such people are also
essentially American in culture (depends on a definition which still
seems open to debate), since most have been to graduate
school in the US.

USATODAY.com - Reverse brain drain threatens U.S. economy

We seem to be more worried about the cultural influx of immigrants
who may not be so valuable to our economic future. In the process,
are we scaring away the ones that are?
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:49 PM
 
1,463 posts, read 5,541,530 times
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Interesting topic...Maybe someone should ask the Native Americans what they think about illegal immigrants and multi culture. I'm sure they will tell you its not all cracked up to what other people claim..
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:54 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Default Bily4

Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Illegal immigration exists in these countries. However - most immigrants in these countries are legal. Americans and to an even greater extent Europeans, let these immigrants in, not out of the goodness of their hearts and their judeo-christian traditions, but much more pragmatically, they are no longer having kids, they are all growing older, and they need grunts to keep their economies moving.
Okay, Bily4, I'll give you partial credit for this. While not backing down from my "our cultural values" position, I will concede that you are correct in that we do have a sagging birthrate. After all, well-paid yuppies with an exciting lifestyle are hardly of a frame of mind to have 3 or 4 kids. I still say, though, it's 4 steps forward and 3 steps back; the costs of this immigration nearly match its benefits.
BTW, don't know if you've ever heard this--Interesting story, though. You probably know that Brazil has the largest (I believe) population of overseas Japanese on earth (or very close to it)-mainly concentrated in 2 states. Some years ago (10 or so ?) one of the big Japanese mega-corps (maybe Mitsubishi) were looking desperately for new entry level "grunts" (your words). Very leery, as you know, of a foreign influx, they finally settled on recruiting among the Brazilian-Japanese community. Workers were located, transported to Japan, and settled into subsidized housing.
To make a long story short, the rather insular Japanese had a rude awakening. These people didn't ACT right. They partied, argued loudly, had a rather lax work ethic, and just generally "raised hell" with the system. Corporate leaders were reluctant, but finally had to admit that these were NOT Japanese people-- they were LATIN AMERICANS !! I'm not sure how long the program went on, but I believe it was finally cancelled. Japan, as you know, is one of those places whose population is definitely aging, yet they're not too keen on foreigners coming in....True story (can't swear to exact details) Ever hear of this?
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,915,883 times
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Normalguy, while I insist that the unglamorous and yes, "grunt" jobs are essential positions that must be filled as well, you bring up a very good point. We touch on this in the "white collar outsourcing" thread in a related discussion. Pretty soon at the rate things are going the highly skilled immigrants won't be knocking on our doors at all anymore, even to go to school. Research and development is being emphasized and supported much more in other countries than here - China is all over stem cell research, for example. Partly due to our government policies, partly due to the globalization trends, partly due to our education system that devalues science and research (they only make $40-50k/year average and kids do not think it is "cool" to be a scientist)...we are losing the edge we once used to brag about, and we will be playing catch up pretty soon.
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:23 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,003,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Illegal immigration exists in these countries. However - most immigrants in these countries are legal. Americans and to an even greater extent Europeans, let these immigrants in, not out of the goodness of their hearts and their judeo-christian traditions, but much more pragmatically, they are no longer having kids, they are all growing older, and they need grunts to keep their economies moving.

I actually agree with most of this. Although I would point out that even though Europe does in fact have a huge illegal alien problem, it is compounded by the fact that many enter legally with work permits, then they they fail to renew their permits, perfering to work in the undergound ecomomy.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 21,516,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Illegal immigration exists in these countries. However - most immigrants in these countries are legal. Americans and to an even greater extent Europeans, let these immigrants in, not out of the goodness of their hearts and their judeo-christian traditions, but much more pragmatically, they are no longer having kids, they are all growing older, and they need grunts to keep their economies moving.
Bravo !
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:10 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Default Clarifying a Point

Can't argue with your positions on our hypocritical stance on the "immigrants"- it's true we do want their labor, but are loathe to admit it (ie, they're "taking our jobs", etc)...My "cultural" take was only an attempt to define where WE are "coming from" on this issue. We want their labor and contributions (practical real-world fact), but once they're here, we feel morally obligated to "consider their feelings" and "include" them (the judeo-christian "niceness" factor).
As an illustration of a comparable situation with a very different outcome, I'd offer the example of the wealthy Gulf Arab states. They too need and want foreign workers to "staff" their new society, and are very willing to pay for this- all the way from Western and Chinese technical experts down to the Filipino, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi maids and construction laborers. HOWEVER, as a non-western "culture", I don't believe these wealthy Arab states feel a moral imperative to "include" the foreigners in their own society, nor grant them any decision-making input, or even really a "voice" at all. The feeling is, "you are a foreigner; you'll be paid well, but are not, and never will be, citizens of our society."
Big BIG BIG difference between the "immigrant" situation here in the West, and in other parts of the world. That difference, I believe, could be assigned to the very different CULTURES of the respective host societies.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
634 posts, read 2,555,614 times
Reputation: 463
I'm really shocked at some of the comments I've read. Some people claim to not understand what I'm refering to -- popular culture, educational systems, worklife, political leaders -- it's a question of where is there *not* a multicultural imperative, as if the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Europe would all shrivel and die without multiculturalism, despite the fact that multiculturalism is a new concept in these regions, not more than 40 or so years old, and without any previously successful trial.

Regarding imperialism, it was a benefit to the countries it affected, so it's not a case of fair play via turnabout. Imperialism in most cases brought countries out of stone aged lifestyles and introduced them to paved roads, running household water, etc.

Regarding the U.S., the U.S. was never defined as a "nation of immigrants" until after the 1965 immigration act was passed, and even then years later. In fact, the term "nation of immigrants" wasn't used often not more than ten years ago. You can read the Federalist Papers, Common Sense, the U.S. Constitution, or any other influential writings composed in America's infancy or pre-infancy and you will not find the U.S. defined as a "nation of immigrants". So again, we have another red herring argument without any foundation in factual data.

And that's that once again.
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