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Old 07-20-2007, 06:37 PM
 
202 posts, read 184,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T View Post

Regarding the U.S., the U.S. was never defined as a "nation of immigrants" until after the 1965 immigration act was passed, and even then years later. In fact, the term "nation of immigrants" wasn't used often not more than ten years ago. You can read the Federalist Papers, Common Sense, the U.S. Constitution, or any other influential writings composed in America's infancy or pre-infancy and you will not find the U.S. defined as a "nation of immigrants".
The term may not have been used, but this country was a nation of immigrants the moment the first boat hit the shore in 1620 in the first planned European migration...unless you want to count wanderers from northeast Asia 20,000 years ago, and even in that case case...still a nation of immigrants.

You note that you're shocked at responses...no less shocking is your apparent assertion that America is somehow NOT comprised of people who, in the beginning, came from somewhere else. It's been full of immigrants from the nation's birth, how is that even arguable?
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Midwest
3,699 posts, read 6,714,876 times
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Because guilt-riddled neo-comms have gained the upper hand in those countries?
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Default Point of Order

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribbler View Post
The term may not have been used, but this country was a nation of immigrants the moment the first boat hit the shore in 1620 in the first planned European migration...unless you want to count wanderers from northeast Asia 20,000 years ago, and even in that case case...still a nation of immigrants.

You note that you're shocked at responses...no less shocking is your apparent assertion that America is somehow NOT comprised of people who, in the beginning, came from somewhere else. It's been full of immigrants from the nation's birth, how is that even arguable?
Only correcting your terms, not to argue anything beyond that- but when "America" started (1776), many of the "citizens" had been born in North America. At some point soon after, America became a nation of people DESCENDED from immigrants, supplemented by a varying number of new arrivals year by year. The largest PERCENTAGE of foreign-born inhabitants in the past was in the earliest years of the 20th century, when, at one point, it was estimated that 25% of the population of New York City was foreign-born.
After that, the percentage went down until rising again in recent decades, and has now surpassed that amount; in other words, the US now has a larger percentage of foreign-born residents than at any time in its history. We are all descended from immigrants, even my wife, whose ancestors, as you said, "walked" here from Asia. However, in this modern nation of ours, the United States, we've never had a majority of the population being immigrants- we are DESCENDED from immigrants.
We are no more a nation of immigrants than we are a nation of farmworkers, or a nation of buffalo hunters, or a nation of slave owners, or a nation of slaves. We are DESCENDED from those groups. Big difference.
BTW, if you insist on your terms, then ALL nations on earth are "nations of immigrants". Everybody on earth had ancestors who came from elsewhere.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:31 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T View Post
I'm really shocked at some of the comments I've read. Some people claim to not understand what I'm refering to -- popular culture, educational systems, worklife, political leaders -- it's a question of where is there *not* a multicultural imperative, as if the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Europe would all shrivel and die without multiculturalism, despite the fact that multiculturalism is a new concept in these regions, not more than 40 or so years old, and without any previously successful trial.

Regarding imperialism, it was a benefit to the countries it affected, so it's not a case of fair play via turnabout. Imperialism in most cases brought countries out of stone aged lifestyles and introduced them to paved roads, running household water, etc.

Regarding the U.S., the U.S. was never defined as a "nation of immigrants" until after the 1965 immigration act was passed, and even then years later. In fact, the term "nation of immigrants" wasn't used often not more than ten years ago. You can read the Federalist Papers, Common Sense, the U.S. Constitution, or any other influential writings composed in America's infancy or pre-infancy and you will not find the U.S. defined as a "nation of immigrants". So again, we have another red herring argument without any foundation in factual data.

And that's that once again.
You've hit upon points I've gone over before. While I don't hold with bigotry and racism, which in my view are just plain hurtful and immoral, I am not an advocate of open-ended multiculturalism, either. Most people know this in the privacy of their thoughts, but are intimidated by the fear of being labeled "racist" if they voice such sentiments. Race is genetic- we can do nothing to alter it. No decent person would hold another's "race" against him. Culture, though, is elective, and people can, if they desire, modify and improve upon cultural values over time. It takes work and determination, but generations have done it successfully. The large majority of the "anglos" of the US are NOT of English ancestry. The US culture was a large-scale, on-going compromise between various diverse groups who modified their "rough edges" toward the greater goal of living in peace and harmony in their new country.
Assuming that OUR culture (that of the USA) seeks the best in each of us; seeks to change those qualities that are "bad" in us, and seeks to "atone" for past injustices, and continues to work toward the ideal that ALL MEN are created equal, it follows that we should be VERY CAREFUL about just what we will accept from other cultures- some are good, and we have no problem discovering new and exotic things and ideas. Life is immeasurably more interesting with this sort of cutural broadening. All races and all people are welcome to adopt "our" US culture. Our natural reaction is to feel we should welcome outsiders, given half a chance, and our record historically, though not perfect, far exceeds that of almost any other country.
A brief look around the world, however, will easily show us that there are some VERY BAD qualities out there in other cultures. We have the right, and the duty, to insure that we don't "adapt" these negative qualities of other cultures. That fact requires us to judge and evaluate things, to accept what is good and reject what is bad. And that's a long, long way from bigotry or racism....
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:43 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,737,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingler View Post
There was not a ton of Europeans looking to emigrate and do the nasty dirty jobs so the US and other countries opened up to more immigration from third world countries. This has increased in recent years so now 1/3 of people are foreign born. Compared with 5% in 1960. The push for multiculturalism has made all the countries mentioned have a weaker base culture, many racial issues but a stronger economy.
The foreign-born represented a little under 10% of the US population in 1850. At the turn of the century, it had risen to about 14%, but after a peak at 15% in 1920, it fell back to 12% by 1930. It was just 7% in 1950, and only 8% by 1990. Today, it is in the neighborhood of 12%. That number is approximately 1/8, not 1/3.
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
634 posts, read 2,555,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
You've hit upon points I've gone over before.
No, I did not. What you've attempted to do is throw out some red herrings that have nothing to do with the OP. The OP asks why it's only a select few countries, not whether it is useful to cultivate multiculturalism. Futhermore, the contrived "diversity" your're refering to in the U.S. is composed of small differences between Nordics, Celtics, Euro-Mediterraneans, and Alpines, who for the most part are very similar in genetic disposition despite nation of origin and do not constitute any sort of clash, culturally speaking. Modern "diversity" is far more diverse than before, and tends to make regions less like the U.S. in its traditional character, even to the point of clashing with traditional, first world values.
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
634 posts, read 2,555,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribbler View Post
The term may not have been used, but this country was a nation of immigrants the moment the first boat hit the shore in 1620 in the first planned European migration...unless you want to count wanderers from northeast Asia 20,000 years ago, and even in that case case...still a nation of immigrants.

You note that you're shocked at responses...no less shocking is your apparent assertion that America is somehow NOT comprised of people who, in the beginning, came from somewhere else. It's been full of immigrants from the nation's birth, how is that even arguable?
EVERY nation is a nation of immigrants. So how can you define the U.S. as a nation of immigrants if its common to every nation? That's like defining the daytime sky above you as the one that's blue.
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Midwest
1,903 posts, read 7,162,132 times
Reputation: 454
Continental Europe does not have a true multicultural ethos, only ethnic ghettos that you see in France, Germany, and Sweden. Only the Anglophone countries absorb immigrants from other societies by any measure of success, and Britain follows the European pattern moreso than the Anglosphere pattern of America, Australia, and Canada.
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Old 07-21-2007, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,915,883 times
Reputation: 1197
Quote:
Originally Posted by James T View Post
Modern "diversity" is far more diverse than before, and tends to make regions less like the U.S. in its traditional character, even to the point of clashing with traditional, first world values.
Right... the modern immigrants are from other cultures and of other colors. Could you be more specific in relation to how now regions of the U.S. are now clashing with traditional, "first world" values. Which regions? Which values? I am assuming not the mountains of Kentucky, which is about as 3rd world as you are going to get in our country, and is composed of the original European stock.

You posed the question, you must have a hypothesis. Why do you think that the U.S. and Europe are permitting this scourge of "multiculturalism" to occur?
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:25 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by James T View Post
No, I did not. What you've attempted to do is throw out some red herrings that have nothing to do with the OP. The OP asks why it's only a select few countries, not whether it is useful to cultivate multiculturalism. Futhermore, the contrived "diversity" your're refering to in the U.S. is composed of small differences between Nordics, Celtics, Euro-Mediterraneans, and Alpines, who for the most part are very similar in genetic disposition despite nation of origin and do not constitute any sort of clash, culturally speaking. Modern "diversity" is far more diverse than before, and tends to make regions less like the U.S. in its traditional character, even to the point of clashing with traditional, first world values.
I don't remember saying any of that--- could be you've confused we with another poster.....Your post sounds like nothing I've ever promoted...

PS on going back over YOUR post, I HAVE asserted in the past that "multiculturalism" is a new idea, going back no more that a few decades; that its blessings do seem to be promoted now, without anyone seeming to urge caution in its across-the-board adaptation; and that, as I see it, we could just as easily DEGRADE our society as we could IMPROVE it, if we don't monitor cultural changes very carefully. I don't believe ALL cultures are equally desirable.
This advice sounds pretty straightforward to me (like "trading in your car for a newer model"--how can you be sure you'll like the new model better? Maybe you will, but perhaps not)-- but even these mild and neutral observations seem to "ruffle the feathers" of a few folks. It is a subject that's virtually impossible to discuss calmly at the present time, and that's what bothers me. If I'm wrong, tell me politely, give me rational reasons for your position, and explain to me how I'm mistaken. Most of what I hear, though, is two sides, each trying to drown out the other in emotional slogans, name-calling, and selective half-truths.

Last edited by macmeal; 07-21-2007 at 11:41 AM..
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