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Old 07-27-2007, 10:23 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Easy, macmeal, easy...I have never seen you so worked up!

To answer your question - Why does "multi-racial" have to be "multi-cultural"---do people HAVE to "act White?" or "act Brown" or "act 75% brown with a touch of black and Jewish?"---what is so difficult about asking that people adopt a common set of core values which they can mutually agree upon to ensure a smooth, respectful, functioning society?

I agree absolutely. They should be respectful and law abiding citizens. If not they should face the penalty of our legal system. They should also be free to wear whatever clothing they want, eat whatever food they want, listen to whatever music they want. (Barring certain standards of dress in certain places of business). And I don't see what the issue is with this. I don't see why we should try to be a little more tolerant and ask them to be tolerant of our tastes. I had to put up with country music on my ship for goodness sake, and I survived.Your point about stereotyping races is well taken. Contrary to some posters around here, many minorities are indeed productive and law abiding citizens in our society... not dreaming up a coup de etat. And personally I think getting the 15 million illegals into the system in some way so they can pay taxes and medical bills and everything else everybody likes to whine about would make sense to reach that smooth running utopian multi-ethnic society you envision for us.
Two more points and I'll let you go--first, your use of the term "utopian" troubles me--it seems to be your tacit admission that there really can't ever BE a smmoth-functioning society such as I hope for; that your gut-instinct is that this will never work in real life...

ALSO you mention "getting the illegals into the system"--not a bad thought, but if they become part of the system, what would make an employer want to hire them? What happens when they get so "expensive" that we can no longer exploit them? Will we be looking for still OTHER illegals to replace our "newly-legals"..

PS My ideal dream has been, and will continue to be-NO DEPORATATIONS--but, at the same time NO MORE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, period. If you're HERE, you'll be "grandfathered" into the system-- we'll "eat" the cost. But it STOPS HERE--NO MORE--ZILCH---NADA !!...seems to me the most humane of several less-than-ideal options....don't know how others feel. By the way, this was SUPPOSED to have happened some years ago, with the FIRST amnesty.....

Last edited by macmeal; 07-27-2007 at 10:25 AM.. Reason: spealing
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:19 AM
 
Location: brevard,nc
11 posts, read 30,856 times
Reputation: 14
Im sure that if Guatemala and Zimbabwe had booming economies they would be "required" to be multicultural. Perhaps your problem is that you feel "required " to be multiracial?
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:54 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Default Please Don't "Out" Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by claudlili View Post
Im sure that if Guatemala and Zimbabwe had booming economies they would be "required" to be multicultural. Perhaps your problem is that you feel "required " to be multiracial?
I HOPE we can remain multiracial--if not, I will lose my family, including spouse, kids and grandkids....But, yes, I do feel "required" to promote multiculturalism, to avoid being labeled a racist. Guatemala is a largely Indian nation ruled by a tiny white oligarchy; very similar to the next-door Mexican state of Chiapas.---don't know if you'd call that multicultural or not, but it's certainly not prosperous.
Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) was once the "breadbasket of Africa" and had a prosperous, solvent farming community, able to export food throughout the continent. Unfortunately, these farms were largely under the ownership of white Zimbabwaens, and under the "new" government, most of the farms have been "transferred" (forcibly or otherwise) to black ownership, and have largely fallen into an impoverished state, as "whitey" either "heads for the hills", or abandons the country altogether, to move overseas. Don't know if it's multicultural, but doesn't seem to have much to do with our situation here.
On the other hand, Japan is a world-class economic power---South Korea is quite an up-and-coming dynamo, too--and some of the Persian Gulf states are among the richest economies on earth, per-capita. None of these places, to my knowledge, has the remotest desire to become "multi-cultural".
PS Claudlili--PLEASE don't tell another soul, but you're right, I'm really a closet racist. 37 years ago I married a person of a race different than mine, but soon I'll MAKE MY MOVE!! so, shhhhhhhh---keep it QUIET, please!! Don't spoil my plans !! If my wife found out, she might REVERT to her primitive state and SCALP me--and then it would be YOUR FAULT !

Last edited by macmeal; 07-27-2007 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman Area
1,431 posts, read 3,570,540 times
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macmeal,

glad you brought up the issue of Zimbabwe. White farmers were ordered by the goverment to give their farms and lands to blacks and government cronies. Those who did not give up their land were jailed. Zimbabwe was once a very properous nation in Africa. Now it ranks as a third world country. The white minority has been forced to flee that country as well as other African countries including South Africa because of violent racism.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:05 PM
 
259 posts, read 852,496 times
Reputation: 132
Originally by James T
Quote:
Why Are Only a Select Few Nations Required to Be Multicultural?
Why is it that only the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the nations of Europe are required to be "multicultural"? Why those nations specifically? Why not, for example, China, India, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, or Guatemala? None of those nations, nor most of the world's nations have a multicultural imperative, where that the host culture is smothered with cultures from all over the world and sucess at the endeavor is gauged by how heavily the host culture is impacted, if not erased entirely
You are correct! All countries that join the (EU) European Union are forced to accept Multiculturalism. Nations who did not maintain overseas colonies such as Poland, Lithuanian, Latvia must allow Non-white immigrants from Western Europe to settle in their countries! Poland has a temporary ban on immigration for 10-15 years by treaty with the EU.

Originally by Anonymous
Quote:
Because when the OP asked about nations that are "required" to be multicultural, it would necessitate some sort of extranational governing body (like NATO or the UN) that was forcing these countries to be a certain way.
I think it is time for everybody to wise up! There is a myriad of international organizations that are forcing the West to embrace Multiculturalism!

Eurasylum Portal: immigration control and asylum policy in Europe and internationally

Last edited by Dee62; 07-30-2007 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Live in VA, Work in MD, Play in DC
694 posts, read 1,982,840 times
Reputation: 249
Just because other countries don't have Mexican immigrants doesn't mean that they don't have immigratants period.

There are other asians living in different asian countries. Filipinos that live in Korea. Koreans that live in Vietnam. Chinese that live in Thailand. Thai that live in Laos.

Do you guys just think that asians are all the same?
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Venice, Fl
1,497 posts, read 3,024,684 times
Reputation: 1384
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Quote:
If you want to repair what is broken, you had better continue to deal with the multicultural immigrants that we need to keep our economy going.
Much better to oppose the war in Iraq that is nothing but a drain on lives and resources.

The problem you are going to run into so long as a Republican is in charge - is that they don't have a whole heck of a lot of interest in addressing the issues you raise. If the poor people just get enterprising and achieve... they will figure out a way out of poverty all on their own. The region hit by Katrina still looks liks a war zone. Bush threatened to veto a cigarette tax to give poor kids medical insurance, for crying out loud.

By the way, americanpatrol.com is a website that caters exclusively to old white men. So I imaging fear mongering about the evil races mixing with the Caucasian race is a big seller for them.
Why do you keep insisting that we need illegals to keep the economy afloat ? Are they buying houses, cars, land etc. No, in fact they work so they can take all their earnings home to mexico so their families there can have a better life. Absolutely blows my mind. You blame Americans for not wanting to do grunt work, blame companies for not wanting to pay fair wages.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,915,058 times
Reputation: 1197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Winter View Post
Why do you keep insisting that we need illegals to keep the economy afloat ? Are they buying houses, cars, land etc. No, in fact they work so they can take all their earnings home to mexico so their families there can have a better life. Absolutely blows my mind. You blame Americans for not wanting to do grunt work, blame companies for not wanting to pay fair wages.

Heh, heh....been readin up on me have you Old Man Winter?

Your assertion is true in part - they do in fact send much of their income to their families in Mexico, or wherever their land of origin is. This helps in part to maintain stability in our hemisphere by the way, in the way of direct foreign aid, instead of us having to send our tax dollars. However -they also contribute to their local economies, often substantially. Border regions in our country would go belly up without the income coming in from Hispanics, both those living here and those that cross over to shop. And while it is uncomfortable to admit that there are today many jobs Americans will not do, it is true. I understand that may not be a popular view in this neck of the woods, but oh well. This opinion piece from a conservative perspective from the wall street journal does a nice job of discussing it, supported by many prominent conservatives.

OpinionJournal - Extra

Last edited by bily4; 08-06-2007 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:06 PM
 
7,352 posts, read 8,990,061 times
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bily4: With all due respect, the WSJ is hardly the publication to refer to in this instance. It does represent the interests of corporate America, after all. There are a couple of other points you make with which I take issue:

1) that illegal immigrants are doing jobs Americans won't do. Which jobs are these? Only 2% of illegal immigrants work in the agricultural sector. As i mentioned in another thread, I have an African-American student who has been trying desperately to find a job to earn enough money to share rent with a friend, so that he can escape the dangerous neighborhood in which he lives. He was turned down for a position as a janitor at a prominent hotel chain because he doesn't speak Spanish. And he is not the only young person i know who cannot find a job--largely because many of the unskilled service sector jobs have been taken by immigrants--legal and illegal: maintenance, restaurant, landscaping, painting, etc. It's not true to say that there are no Americans who will take these jobs. It is true to say that there are fewer Americans than illegal immigrants who will take jobs at poverty pay scales. i don't believe a thing corporate America says. They wailed and moaned about closing American factories to ship jobs and manufacturing overseas--so they could "compete," and it would also be great, they said, because they could pass the savings on to Americans. What savings? Where? Take a furniture company like Ethan Allen, for example (in the last decade alone, American has lost about 70-80% of its furniture manufacturing to offshoring). it sells fiberboard "secretaries" for $2000. Please.

2) The U.S. middle class should not be asked to subsidize illegal immigrants as a way "to maintain stability in our hemisphere." This is just taking the burden of responsibility off of Mexico and putting it on the backs of the American people. Whatever illegal immigrants pay in taxes--if any--is seriously cancelled out by the money they send out of the American economy. Whether it helps Mexico is irrelevant--if you understand that the continued degradation of society and the environment in the U.S.--as a result of overpopulation--doesn't help anybody, in the long run. It's very easy to stand up for illegal immigrants if you are someone who doesn't have to experience the stresses of, for example: budget cuts in school programs for American children (who represent several races and cultures themselves) in order to provide extra assimilative programs for the children of illegal immigrants; budget cuts in hospital programs and staff, in order to provide for the enormous demands made by illegal immigrants on the health care system; additional criminal activity; and--perhaps most importantly of all--the environmental stresses. As long as the U.S. serves as a convenient place to export poverty (and its attendant problems) by the Mexican government (the wealthiest government in Latin America), what incentive will there be for Mexico to change? Mexico will NEVER change until it is forced to. That might take a revolution, I don't know. But I do know that change will not come--ever--until it be forced to take on its responsibility to its people.

3) The environment: I am constantly saddened and amazed by the fact that Americans, by and large, think that this is an ever-expanding continent, that it can take as many millions as we choose to live here, indefinitely, forever, with no penalties. This is tragically wrong. The population in the U.S.--today--has already surpassed sustainable levels. The land is getting sick: species are disappearing at accelerated rates, water tables are diminishing, soil is losing its complexity and adaptability. And yet, people keep spouting old rhetoric about "nation of immigrants," "growth economy," etc. But it's not 1907, it's 2007, and the world is a different place--and by "the world," I mean the land, the water, habitats. Just how much do we think we can slash-and-burn, or "develop," without hitting the ecological tipping point? It's human arrogance to assume that we can do whatever we want and that the only thing that matters is human society. If we don't start taking the land into consideration when formulating public policy--on immigration or many other issues--two to three generations down the line will pay the price for that hubris.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,915,058 times
Reputation: 1197
Movingforward I appreciate your tone and your points. They are well taken.

I am sure there are cases such as the African-American student you mention. Many African-americans did indeed used to work the jobs that illegal immigrnats now perform. However, in general African-Americans have improved their lifestyles to the point they no longer desire the janitorial/factory/manual jobs you discuss. 70% of all Blacks now have white collar jobs or jobs in the service industry. Are there enough Blacks available and willing to take over all of these menial jobs, and go back to the pre -civil rights era? I doubt it.

In the areas of the U.S. where large illegal populations live, there are actually lower levels of unemployment than in other areas in the U.S., because illegals go to places with strong economies where there is plenty of work for them. It should also be remembered that they create jobs as well through their presence, creating markets that cater to them that they spend their money on. The economy is not a zero sum game. The contributions they make to social security and medicare are also significant.

What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.


Reason Foundation Commentary: Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think

By tightening borders over recent years one of the unintended effects is that this has increased the illegal population in our country. Before the men would come over and work for periods, then return to visit and live for periods with their families. Now they are forced to bring their families over with them and stay for good. So now we have 5 million children of illegal immigrants living here that would have been much less.

Sure there are issues that need to be dealt with when you talk about schools, medical bills, the environment. No argument there. Is globalization and offshoring as you mention occurring and causing problems for the normal Joe? Absolutely. This is in my view much more of an issue and cause for concern than the illegal immigration issue, but it gets very little press.

Should the Mexican government spread the wealth and entice more of their people to stay in their country? You bet. Democracy is starting to ease into Mexico, but after a century of 1 party rule and corruption at the highest levels of government it is not going to happen overnight.

It is hard to quantify exactly the overall beneifts/costs of the illegal immigration problem in dollars. Most credible economic studies conducted call it pretty close to a wash, although there are certainly those that get hit harder and others that benefit more.

I do have an issue with those that magnify and exaggerate the problems to gross proportions and overlook/minimize the benefits, and let's be honest, there is a nice dollop of racism that gets thrown into the discussion.

Last edited by bily4; 08-07-2007 at 12:29 PM.. Reason: added source
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