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Old 02-15-2011, 08:57 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,097,724 times
Reputation: 2199

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
Is it that fact that "those people" come here, or the fact that some of them receive benefits from the collective?

If it is about the benefits than the solution is to champion the removal of benefits for all, not just illegalís. That way we won't need a big government apparatus to hunt down violators.
Existing laws just needs to be enforced & anchor babies should be made to apply for citizenship at 18. Mothers should be penalized with jail time & deportation for breaking & entering/ Trespassing.

 
Old 02-15-2011, 09:19 AM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,106,910 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
BTW - I am not all that happy with our current culture so some of the changes might be for the better.
Them move somewhere else like your socialist utopia Cuba, or Scandinavia

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Idiots always find a way to create conflicts.
I agree. That's why whenever conservatives try to have a frank discussion about culture and society, you can always rely on the liberals to dumb down the discussion by pulling out the race and Nazi cards
 
Old 02-15-2011, 09:30 AM
 
1,041 posts, read 1,261,770 times
Reputation: 762
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
I wish the press would say it the same way.



Seems like the U.S is not the only dealing with this problem



Couldn't agree more



One word. Outrageous





When will America wake up?

This man uses comparisons with other countries loosely and mixes up everything.

First of all, the British, the French and the US have all different immigration models, laws and problems. This should be common knowledge.

For instance, the british multiculturalism is different than the american 'melting pot' or the french laic and assimilation model.

Each have different laws and each have different issues because of their specific demographic context and because no system is perfect.

For instance, in Canada, the multiculturalism act actually supports culture to continue living as they lived in their country. It's written in text and something canadians pride themselves with. It was most a way to create, as then prime minister said, a 'mosaic of cultures' in which french-canada would lose itself and lose the 'distinctiveness' argument it uses for separation.

The problem with this model is that it actually encourages immigrant not to assimilate and leads to ghettoization. The British have a similar model with the same problems.

The french assimilation and laicity model is different. The law requires you to keep your custom outside of the public sphere. This discourages religious groups, on the other hand, it is viewed as an infringment on rights and leads to an isolation and conflict with religious communities. France has kept its large muslim population from influencing its institution, but at the same time, a lot of them feel disenfranchised as a result.

The american 'melting pot' is different. It is viewed as a compromise between assimilation (french) and multiculturalism (british), as it doesn't require (in law) the immigrant to abandon its culture nor does it encourage him (in law) to keep his customs. It worked well for americans so far but with each large waves of immigrants (irish, italians, mexicans...etc) comes distrust from the majority that the newcomers will not assimilate, when in fact, they only partly do and modify the demographic landscape and culture which later generations will eventually accept as the norm.

As you can see, none of these models are the same. They were all designed for different reasons. They were translated in legislation, which makes countries vastly different from one another in regards to immigration. To compare them like they are interchangeable like the author did is ignorant. To use the word "multiculturalism" when it's usually in reference to the British model is also misguiding.

What I will concede though, is that regardless of the model, each basically stop working when you have a large influx of a same population localizing in a specific area, like mexicans in the US or muslims in parts of europe. Immigration laws can only do so much and what they can't do is reverse demographic trends so everyone, locals and immigrants, will have to tolerate each others until things get smoother.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,004,420 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
I agree. That's why whenever conservatives try to have a frank discussion about culture and society, you can always rely on the liberals to dumb down the discussion by pulling out the race and Nazi cards
Thank you for illustrating my point. In a uni-culture, idiots will find another reason, as you demonstrated here... on political grounds.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 09:46 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,097,724 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLucasLongLostChin View Post
This man uses comparisons with other countries loosely and mixes up everything.

First of all, the British, the French and the US have all different immigration models, laws and problems. This should be common knowledge.

For instance, the british multiculturalism is different than the american 'melting pot' or the french laic and assimilation model.

Each have different laws and each have different issues because of their specific demographic context and because no system is perfect.

For instance, in Canada, the multiculturalism act actually supports culture to continue living as they lived in their country. It's written in text and something canadians pride themselves with. It was most a way to create, as then prime minister said, a 'mosaic of cultures' in which french-canada would lose itself and lose the 'distinctiveness' argument it uses for separation.

The problem with this model is that it actually encourages immigrant not to assimilate and leads to ghettoization. The British have a similar model with the same problems.

The french assimilation and laicity model is different. The law requires you to keep your custom outside of the public sphere. This discourages religious groups, on the other hand, it is viewed as an infringment on rights and leads to an isolation and conflict with religious communities. France has kept its large muslim population from influencing its institution, but at the same time, a lot of them feel disenfranchised as a result.

The american 'melting pot' is different. It is viewed as a compromise between assimilation (french) and multiculturalism (british), as it doesn't require (in law) the immigrant to abandon its culture nor does it encourage him (in law) to keep his customs. It worked well for americans so far but with each large waves of immigrants (irish, italians, mexicans...etc) comes distrust from the majority that the newcomers will not assimilate, when in fact, they only partly do and modify the demographic landscape and culture which later generations will eventually accept as the norm.

As you can see, none of these models are the same. They were all designed for different reasons. They were translated in legislation, which makes countries vastly different from one another in regards to immigration. To compare them like they are interchangeable like the author did is ignorant. To use the word "multiculturalism" when it's usually in reference to the British model is also misguiding.

What I will concede though, is that regardless of the model, each basically stop working when you have a large influx of a same population localizing in a specific area, like mexicans in the US or muslims in parts of europe. Immigration laws can only do so much and what they can't do is reverse demographic trends so everyone, locals and immigrants, will have to tolerate each others until things get smoother.

You are a confused soul.

Have you even read the article?

Its destroying countries.

Please read the article. There is a problem when there is too many
 
Old 02-15-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,115,927 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Existing laws just needs to be enforced & anchor babies should be made to apply for citizenship at 18. Mothers should be penalized with jail time & deportation for breaking & entering/ Trespassing.
That just sounds so different than "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."

I prefer the path of liberty and freedom, not finger pointing, name calling demonizing, force, laws, penalties, jail, deportation, fences, guards, guns, killings, agencies, law enforcers.

An even playing field based on mutual respect, voluntary cooperation and charity sounds a lot more appealing to me.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 10:00 AM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,106,910 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Thank you for illustrating my point. In a uni-culture, idiots will find another reason, as you demonstrated here... on political grounds.
Unlike you, I come from a monolithic, clearly defined culture, and I've seen the good that it can do. Like for example, you can talk to random strangers on the street and not have to step on egg shells because you are scared to voice your opinion for fear of offending, and you have something in common with almost everyone. but I wouldn't expect you to know that. We wouldn't have this sense of comfort if my culture was messed up like liberal society. It's no wonder that the more diverse a neighborhood is, the more disconnect there is between the people. Studies have proven this, civic participation is down, social withdrawal is more common, etc.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,004,420 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Unlike you, I come from a monolithic culture, and I've seen the good that it can do. Like for example, you can talk to random strangers on the street and not have to step on egg shells because you are scared to voice your opinion for fear of offending, and you have something in common with almost everyone. but I wouldn't expect you to know that. We wouldn't have this sense of comfort if my culture was messed up like liberal society
Are you claiming that monolithic societies do not have conflicts within? Heck, conflicts are a common place within a family, and things don't get more monolithic than that.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 10:02 AM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,106,910 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Are you claiming that monolithic societies do not have conflicts within? Heck, conflicts are a common place within a family, and things don't get more monolithic than that.
Are you claiming that diverse societies don't have conflicts? Nice deflection, another liberal tactic right there. Don't address the post, just twist words and deflect.

The future success and cohesion of the USA depends on having a secure, non-porous border, one language used universally in this country (being English), and one clearly defined, dominant culture that ALL immigrants MUST assimilate into. Your idea, as well as other liberals, is to follow the British model and create balkanization of the immigrants, because it's "interesting" and the "non-racist" thing to do. Look at European society. It is becoming very uneasy with millions of immigrants not assimilating and being marginalized from mainstream society, creating crime and extremism especially amongst the Muslims. If you marginalize them, and don't let them become part of this one culture, then you create problems. Diversity creates more problems than it solves. Assimilation is the only way. Practice your religion at home, and speak your language, but as soon as you step out of your front door, you are an ENGLISH SPEAKING AMERICAN.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,004,420 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Are you claiming that diverse societies don't have conflicts? Nice deflection, another liberal tactic right there. Don't address the post, just twist words and deflect.
Deflection? I ain't the one in denial of conflicts or that only a multicultural society will ever see one. Heck,put two idiot identical twins and you would have enough drama.
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