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Old 03-08-2011, 04:31 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,186,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Well, here we disagree. Many worker rather get food stamps. Fair rate? I believe here is where part of the problem is. An employer will pay what he think is the fair market price for his commodity. Do you want a union controlling the pay rates for farm workers? Go ahead and see what happens. Let us see which oranges Americans will buy, the ones imported of the ones that reflect union wages to satisfy Americans. There are jobs like let us say waitresses. In many areas they get paid less than minimum wages because they live on tips. That type of job I most Americans in my opinon are willing to take and I do not agree immigrants taking them when they came here to work under some type of temporary work visa.
I do not blame those that try to come to work here illegaly to feed their families. I venture to guess that if you had no other recourse than to illegaly get a job to feed your familiy you would do so. It is called survival. Americans do that all the time in different forms. Buts since illegals are visible they are an easy target. As I said though, I believe they need to be here legaly, take care.
I am starting to get frustrated here because what I said is that there will always be Americans or legal immigrants that would rather have a job than collect food stamps. I didn't say that there weren't any that would rather lay on their backs and collect welfare. I feel like I am expressing myself clearly and yet you don't seem to be comprehending what I am actually saying. A fair rate of pay doesn't have to be union pay but what the going market rate of pay is for doing a certain job.

You say you are opposed to illegal immigration but you don't blame illegals for coming here to work. Sorry, but I feel that your views are in conflict with one another. If one tries to justify illegal immigration IMO they are an advocate for it but then maybe that is just how I see it. No, I would not violate another country's immigration laws to feed my family. First off, I wouldn't have a family I couldn't feed and second I wouldn't want to live a life of lies and hiding like that. Most Mexicans are not starving in Mexico. It is just that they can make more money here. So no, in most cases it isn't a matter of survival.

I am not trying to be rude but you seem to have difficulty understanding what I saying without having to explain it again in detail to you for the second time. It is just too exhausting for me.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,770,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I am starting to get frustrated here because what I said is that there will always be Americans or legal immigrants that would rather have a job than collect food stamps. I didn't say that there weren't any that would rather lay on their backs and collect welfare. I feel like I am expressing myself clearly and yet you don't seem to be comprehending what I am actually saying. A fair rate of pay doesn't have to be union pay but what the going market rate of pay is for doing a certain job.
You are getting frustrated because in my opinion you do not hear what you want to hear. I am aware that there are Americans that will want to work and work hard but I only bring up that there is a segment of Americans that rather live on food stamps. Don't let it get to you lady. I do like exchanging views with you. I find some afinity with you in doing so, not hitting on you, OK!!!!
So let me put it this way, you said there are Americans that want to work and I say there are others that rather get food stamps. Do you agree with this statement? I hope so. As far as the market rate comment I agree. I said that, did I not? So we agree on that too.

You say you are opposed to illegal immigration but you don't blame illegals for coming here to work.
Why should I blame them!? If they are hungry and need to feed their families and know a place where they can find work, what is wrong for them to do whatever they can to feed their families? Nothing wrong with them trying to make it a better life. Here we disagree. That does not mean I support illegal immigration. I do not know if you had any children, I did. I used to tell them there is nothing wrong with asking me for anything. The worst they can get is a NO. I would not blame them when they asked me for something I would not like them to do but if it was important to them, go ahead and ask. That reminds me when I was the First Sergeant in Korea. The commander policy was that Soldiers male and female Soldiers could not sleep together overnight. Regardless whether the policy was fair or unfair that was the policy and had to be enforced. I had to enforce it. I used to tell my platoon sergeant I do not blame the Soldiers for trying to stay together during the night and satisfy their sexual needs but I had to enforce the policy. What is wrong with that? I had empathy for them as human being with their human needs, the same with illegals.

Sorry, but I feel that your views are in conflict with one another. If one tries to justify illegal immigration IMO they are an advocate for it but then maybe that is just how I see it.
I am not justifying breaking a law. I am saying I understand another human being for trying to survive in life as best as he can.

No, I would not violate another country's immigration laws to feed my family.
Easy to say. I do hope you do not find yourself in a situation like many I have seen in my life. However, we will not know that and I am glad because I do not wish it for you. Remember, never say never. First off, I wouldn't have a family I couldn't feed and second I wouldn't want to live a life of lies and hiding like that.

Other people have had to do what they had to do to survive and in some cases even kills. Some rather die but you will only know that when you are in that situation. It is similar like when I was a Soldier. As much training as I have, the question I asked was if I would be able to pull the trigger that first time. The answer is when it is time and the situation to do so.

Most Mexicans are not starving in Mexico. It is just that they can make more money here. So no, in most cases it isn't a matter of survival. You are right in some cases, but, there is another group of people that are in the lowest level economically where they do not have any other recourses. Why in the world would many die in the middle of the Arizona dessert under the sun after walking miles and miles, to have a pick nick in the park or to have an extra sofa in the house? Sorry, to say it but I believe you need to get out there in the world and see further. I lived in Mexico and saw living conditions that are so sad. I also lived in the Dominican Republic and saw the living conditions of people in the Republic of Georgia.


I am not trying to be rude but you seem to have difficulty understanding what I saying without having to explain it again in detail to you for the second time. It is just too exhausting for me.
Take a break then. Do not respond anymore then. The topic is also important to me but I suppose I have better coping skills than you do, probably due to my 32 years of military training to deal with stress. I do not believe I have difficulty understanding you. As I said, you seem not to be able to admit difference of opinion and been shown the rest of the picture. I leave you alone. Sorry you ended up so stressed out. I do wish you the best, take care.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:26 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,941,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
Move to S,Califoria. You'll never be without Mexican food there.
Well just like with Chinese food, we don't need to import the whole entire nation in order to have some meals made, we can just have the recipes.

It's foolish for all those open borders proponents to believe the entire world or even entire nations of people can solve all their problems by simply relocating to the USA.

Immigration is good only if it's legal, orderly, fair, and for the benefit of this nation.

Mexico is not benefitting from the vacuum being created by the large exodus of people out nor from parents of young children abandoning them to follow the Almighty American Dollars. It does not build infrastructure, bring about needed reform, create jobs when a huge portion of the population is busy packing it's bags and figuring out which cartel to pay good money to smuggle them over the border.

It's not benefitting the USA to have millions of people pouring over the border when millions of jobs are being outsourced.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:57 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,186,440 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well just like with Chinese food, we don't need to import the whole entire nation in order to have some meals made, we can just have the recipes.

It's foolish for all those open borders proponents to believe the entire world or even entire nations of people can solve all their problems by simply relocating to the USA.

Immigration is good only if it's legal, orderly, fair, and for the benefit of this nation.

Mexico is not benefitting from the vacuum being created by the large exodus of people out nor from parents of young children abandoning them to follow the Almighty American Dollars. It does not build infrastructure, bring about needed reform, create jobs when a huge portion of the population is busy packing it's bags and figuring out which cartel to pay good money to smuggle them over the border.

It's not benefitting the USA to have millions of people pouring over the border when millions of jobs are being outsourced.
Excellent post!
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,241,964 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well just like with Chinese food, we don't need to import the whole entire nation in order to have some meals made, we can just have the recipes.

It's foolish for all those open borders proponents to believe the entire world or even entire nations of people can solve all their problems by simply relocating to the USA.

Immigration is good only if it's legal, orderly, fair, and for the benefit of this nation.

Mexico is not benefitting from the vacuum being created by the large exodus of people out nor from parents of young children abandoning them to follow the Almighty American Dollars. It does not build infrastructure, bring about needed reform, create jobs when a huge portion of the population is busy packing it's bags and figuring out which cartel to pay good money to smuggle them over the border.

It's not benefitting the USA to have millions of people pouring over the border when millions of jobs are being outsourced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Excellent post!
Yeppers.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,749,588 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well just like with Chinese food, we don't need to import the whole entire nation in order to have some meals made, we can just have the recipes.

It's foolish for all those open borders proponents to believe the entire world or even entire nations of people can solve all their problems by simply relocating to the USA.

Immigration is good only if it's legal, orderly, fair, and for the benefit of this nation.

Mexico is not benefitting from the vacuum being created by the large exodus of people out nor from parents of young children abandoning them to follow the Almighty American Dollars. It does not build infrastructure, bring about needed reform, create jobs when a huge portion of the population is busy packing it's bags and figuring out which cartel to pay good money to smuggle them over the border.

It's not benefitting the USA to have millions of people pouring over the border when millions of jobs are being outsourced.
And this is precisely why, IMO, it is in the US's best interest to DRAMATICALLY increase the amount of aid flowing to Mexico. Rather than fighting the stupid drug war, we should help them to build highways and modern infrastructure. It is bad for everyone when you have the best economy in the world next to a borderline third world country.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,241,964 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
And this is precisely why, IMO, it is in the US's best interest to DRAMATICALLY increase the amount of aid flowing to Mexico. Rather than fighting the stupid drug war, we should help them to build highways and modern infrastructure. It is bad for everyone when you have the best economy in the world next to a borderline third world country.
Mexico aint poor. Haiti IS poor.

Let the rich Mexicans help there OWN raza. A big part of the money going there is remitiances from illegals here.

Mexico needs to help itself.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:13 AM
 
20,979 posts, read 15,711,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimace8 View Post
so, in a nutshell i feel i can name 6 or 7 other national problems i'd list ahead of illegal immigration, pushing the illegals issue to the bottom of my "top 10", if it's even in the top 10 at all.

for those who think illegals are a "top 3" national issue, hmmmm, i just don't see it. me not living in a border state has something to do with it i guess but yeesh.

if you think it's the #1 issue, then i really look forward to what you have to say.

it'd take a ton of convincing for me to consider it "top 5"
I would not try to convince you otherwise.

You obviously have your reasons.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,854,828 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
And this is precisely why, IMO, it is in the US's best interest to DRAMATICALLY increase the amount of aid flowing to Mexico. Rather than fighting the stupid drug war, we should help them to build highways and modern infrastructure. It is bad for everyone when you have the best economy in the world next to a borderline third world country.
But, that wonít solve their problems. We have been pouring money into Mexico for years, to no avail. They have a tradition of corruption, so itís a cultural norm, and quite pervasive. Consequently, money is not being used for its intended purpose. It will require the citizens of Mexico to revolt, similar to the Egyptians. Unfortunately, as long as they can flee to the U.S. and receive the red carpet treatment, I doubt that will ever happen.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:57 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,770,337 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well just like with Chinese food, we don't need to import the whole entire nation in order to have some meals made, we can just have the recipes.

It's foolish for all those open borders proponents to believe the entire world or even entire nations of people can solve all their problems by simply relocating to the USA.
I am with you. Borders can be open for those that offer skills the U.S. needs. That is how immigration laws worked originally. President Johnson is the one that started the view of compassion in immigration like to reunite families and other types of social issues. Now, immigrants feel they deserve to be allowed so they can bring their families and be together. Immigration is not a social program.

Immigration is good only if it's legal, orderly, fair, and for the benefit of this nation.
Agreed. Our national interest is the prime consideration in my book.

Mexico is not benefitting from the vacuum being created by the large exodus of people out nor from parents of young children abandoning them to follow the Almighty American Dollars. It does not build infrastructure, bring about needed reform, create jobs when a huge portion of the population is busy packing it's bags and figuring out which cartel to pay good money to smuggle them over the border.

It's not benefitting the USA to have millions of people pouring over the border when millions of jobs are being outsourced.
Validity there also. All I advocate is allowing people that do bring skills needed here as I have stated before, take care.
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