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Old 02-24-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Kinda defeats the purpose of a school/education...if you have to learn the material before you go. you think?
Even simpler solution...let the program progress. The state has the right to develop its curriculum. so long as it follows federal guidelines, there is no problem. The proof will be in the outcome.

Az offers more time for EL classes beyond the one year suggestion. Funded by the state. The kids are in school learning.

Its win-win all the way around...
Children born in this country usually understand the English language prior to entering kindergarten. Even a 2-year-old can communicate in English. There’s a HUGE difference between teaching English-speaking children the alphabet and proper grammar, and teaching illegal alien children how to understand and speak the English language.

There are no winners. Our children are suffering, and illegal alien children rarely complete high school.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:58 AM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,242,553 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Kinda defeats the purpose of a school/education...if you have to learn the material before you go. you think?

Even simpler solution...let the program progress. The state has the right to develop its curriculum. so long as it follows federal guidelines, there is no problem. The proof will be in the outcome.

Az offers more time for EL classes beyond the one year suggestion. Funded by the state. The kids are in school learning.

Its win-win all the way around...
Lose-lose for taxpayers and their children.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,354 posts, read 16,295,574 times
Reputation: 14080
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Kinda defeats the purpose of a school/education...if you have to learn the material before you go. you think?
No, I don't. Parents have some basic responsibilities for their children's education. It isn't up to the taxpayer's to ensure that these (often illegal) kids have an understanding of english suitable to enter the first grade (or k-garden). We don't with any other kids, we expect them to speak the language with some level of ability.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,087,243 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Children born in this country usually understand the English language prior to entering kindergarten. Even a 2-year-old can communicate in English. There’s a HUGE difference between teaching English-speaking children the alphabet and proper grammar, and teaching illegal alien children how to understand and speak the English language.

There are no winners. Our children are suffering, and illegal alien children rarely complete high school.


Quote:
Children born in this country usually understand the English language prior to entering kindergarten. Even a 2-year-old can communicate in English. There’s a HUGE difference between teaching English-speaking children the alphabet and proper grammar, and teaching illegal alien children how to understand and speak the English language
Ok...Thanks for stating the obvious; but what does this have to do with the thread. Its Az's proposal. What does the language capablities of the child have to do with the program? Its a EL learning program, wouldn't one expect the child...not to understand english?


Also, what does the graduation rate of illegal alien children have to do with Arizona's implementation of the EL program?
Quote:
illegal alien children rarely complete high school


You reiterate this contention over and over, yet never cite any credible study which proves your contention. Why is that?



What a bewildering post?
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Ok...Thanks for stating the obvious; but what does this have to do with the thread. Its Az's proposal. What does the language capablities of the child have to do with the program? Its a EL learning program, wouldn't one expect the child...not to understand english?

Also, what does the graduation rate of illegal alien children have to do with Arizona's implementation of the EL program?


You reiterate this contention over and over, yet never cite any credible study which proves your contention. Why is that?


What a bewildering post?
Their inability to “speak English” is in fact the problem.

You were saying. . .

Quote:
Occurring among the fastest-growing population demographic in the United States, this high percentage of dropouts with a low percentage of GED attainment is a serious concern. The most significant problem is among foreign-born Hispanics. Of foreign-born Hispanic adults, 52% are dropouts and may not know about the GED or how to get it. Only 5% of foreign-born Hispanic adults without a high school degree earn a GED. In 2008, this population was over 17 million, and the numbers keep growing.
http://latinoinauguralgala2009.com/2...nics-earn-ged/

Quote:
The children of undocumented immigrants are far more likely to drop out of high school than are students who were born in the U.S. Immigration status and the associated barriers to higher education contribute to this high dropout rate, which costs taxpayers and the economy billions of dollars each year.
Click the following link. I don’t download a pdf. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3113353AAvZHb7

Last edited by Benicar; 02-24-2011 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
 
358 posts, read 332,795 times
Reputation: 107
"Moreover, the same study found that segregation from non-ELL students significantly affected student achievement. The UCLA researchers discovered that the greater the degree of segregation between ELL and non-ELL students, the greater the variance in achievement gaps between the groups of students."

That statement disgusts me. I would like to explain the achievement gap these esteemed researchers refer to. I attended a majority Hispanic middle school that has a very large percentage of students that speak very little if any English. In 8th grade I had the honor of being in three classes that included classmates that required translators. This was the typical hour in my English class: Roll call was taken, the teacher would slowly review the assignment we had to complete that period, pausing frequently while several translators explained the assignment to the Spanish speakers. I would like to add that there was not one translator in the front of the class repeating the teachers instructions in Spanish, but every 2-3 students had a translator!. Once the assignment was finally started the teacher would be tied up for the remaining hour with translators trying to help the students grasp basic concepts they had never experienced.
The quality of education on those classes were lacking, the curriculum was terrible and I learned very little if any from those classes. I seriously spent the entire period in those classes reading a book or sleeping, and passed every one of them. I transfered out of my district to a better one for high school that had no such classes, and can honestly say I was not prepared for the difference in curriculum between the two types of schools. Having a class with language barriers severely lowers expectations of students and "narrows" the achievement gap.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,087,243 times
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Incorrect. The passages you posted never said it was an inability to "speak english". The second link pointed to cited lack of opportunities in the workplace and inablity to attend higher education as causes for dropping out..
Quote:
Immigration status and the associated barriers to higher education contribute to this high dropout rate,

lets examine the quote from Pew...

Quote:
The most significant problem is among foreign-born Hispanics. Of foreign-born Hispanic adults, 52% are dropouts
Pew took statistics from the census. The census gathered information of Foriegn born adult hispanics. No where did the census or Pew qualify that these adults had dropped out from US schools; or their inability to speak English as a factor. Only that they had dropped out. A percentage of them could have dropped out from the schools in thier native countries before they came here. Of the 52%, there is no breakdown of US educated vs. other; or an analysis of cause.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Incorrect. The passages you posted never said it was an inability to "speak english". The second link pointed to cited lack of opportunities in the workplace and inablity to attend higher education as causes for dropping out..



lets examine the quote from Pew...



Pew took statistics from the census. The census gathered information of Foriegn born adult hispanics. No where did the census or Pew qualify that these adults had dropped out from US schools; or their inability to speak English as a factor. Only that they had dropped out. A percentage of them could have dropped out from the schools in thier native countries before they came here. Of the 52%, there is no breakdown of US educated vs. other; or an analysis of cause.
I can’t even take this post seriously.

Why on earth would the U.S. Census report dropout rates for the United States if they were based on an immigrants’ pre-U.S. residency? Like it or not, the majority of illegals do not complete high school.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman82 View Post
"Moreover, the same study found that segregation from non-ELL students significantly affected student achievement. The UCLA researchers discovered that the greater the degree of segregation between ELL and non-ELL students, the greater the variance in achievement gaps between the groups of students."

That statement disgusts me. I would like to explain the achievement gap these esteemed researchers refer to. I attended a majority Hispanic middle school that has a very large percentage of students that speak very little if any English. In 8th grade I had the honor of being in three classes that included classmates that required translators. This was the typical hour in my English class: Roll call was taken, the teacher would slowly review the assignment we had to complete that period, pausing frequently while several translators explained the assignment to the Spanish speakers. I would like to add that there was not one translator in the front of the class repeating the teachers instructions in Spanish, but every 2-3 students had a translator!. Once the assignment was finally started the teacher would be tied up for the remaining hour with translators trying to help the students grasp basic concepts they had never experienced.
The quality of education on those classes were lacking, the curriculum was terrible and I learned very little if any from those classes. I seriously spent the entire period in those classes reading a book or sleeping, and passed every one of them. I transfered out of my district to a better one for high school that had no such classes, and can honestly say I was not prepared for the difference in curriculum between the two types of schools. Having a class with language barriers severely lowers expectations of students and "narrows" the achievement gap.
We are routinely demonized when these truths are mentioned. Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s a damn shame our students are being sacrificed for people who shouldn’t be here.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,802 posts, read 30,052,880 times
Reputation: 17694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman82 View Post
"Moreover, the same study found that segregation from non-ELL students significantly affected student achievement. The UCLA researchers discovered that the greater the degree of segregation between ELL and non-ELL students, the greater the variance in achievement gaps between the groups of students."

That statement disgusts me. I would like to explain the achievement gap these esteemed researchers refer to. I attended a majority Hispanic middle school that has a very large percentage of students that speak very little if any English. In 8th grade I had the honor of being in three classes that included classmates that required translators. This was the typical hour in my English class: Roll call was taken, the teacher would slowly review the assignment we had to complete that period, pausing frequently while several translators explained the assignment to the Spanish speakers. I would like to add that there was not one translator in the front of the class repeating the teachers instructions in Spanish, but every 2-3 students had a translator!. Once the assignment was finally started the teacher would be tied up for the remaining hour with translators trying to help the students grasp basic concepts they had never experienced.
The quality of education on those classes were lacking, the curriculum was terrible and I learned very little if any from those classes. I seriously spent the entire period in those classes reading a book or sleeping, and passed every one of them. I transfered out of my district to a better one for high school that had no such classes, and can honestly say I was not prepared for the difference in curriculum between the two types of schools. Having a class with language barriers severely lowers expectations of students and "narrows" the achievement gap.
Both of my kid's schools have this going on too. The Teachers spend the entire hour helping the struggling students which, SURPRISE, are mostly ESL students. I spend way to much time each night helping them with things that should have been gone over while the assignment was being handed out. I don't blame the Teachers, they are doing the best they can with what they have.
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