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Old 03-09-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
no problem. I do get confused in my old age, lol.
Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You inserted your responses into my quote. Sorry, but I donít feel like going through the trouble of copying and pasting your responses, so this is all that appears from your reply.

I mentioned Mexicoís obesity epidemic, which indicates, for the most part, they are overeating. I did not say they are ALL obese, nor did I imply that you consider them ALL in a state of starvation. However, you did say they are ďdesperately feeding their familiesĒ by coming here, did you not? That, in my opinion, indicates they are unable to feed their families at home.

ďDire conditionsĒ is relative and subjective. I have witnessed the poverty in Mexico, and while many are lacking some of the modern conveniences we take for granted, and would indeed be considered dirt poor, when compared with the abject poverty and starvation found in other regions of the world, such as, Darfur, or even Haiti, I doubt most Mexicans would want to trade places.

If we are going to offer refuge to the truly impoverished, I would prefer we help those actually starving and dying on a daily basis, not simply improve the living conditions of our poor neighbors. After all, we also have a huge population of U.S. citizens living in poverty.

As mentioned on numerous occasions, Mexico is not a poor country. The primary problem with Mexico is its culture of corruption, and the greed and insensitively of its oligarchy. While I certainly can empathize with Mexicoís underclass, fleeing to the U.S. is not the solution. As long as they run from their problems, Mexico will never improve.

In my opinion, we should help those in imminent danger, and those willing to help themselves; not simply serve as an enabler for escapism, and a safety valve for the corrupt government of a foreign nation. Perhaps if more Mexicans remained in Mexico and fought for change, Mexico could actually improve, and more U.S. citizens would be willing to lend a helping hand. But, again, I will not embrace their willful violation of our laws. Nor will I justify or defend their actions. That doesnít mean Iím on a high horse. It simply means I will not compromise my principles, or allow others to put me on a guilt trip to suit their agenda.
Now you know why I gave up, Benicar.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You inserted your responses into my quote. Sorry, but I don’t feel like going through the trouble of copying and pasting your responses, so this is all that appears from your reply.

I mentioned Mexico’s obesity epidemic, which indicates, for the most part, they are overeating. I did not say they are ALL obese, nor did I imply that you consider them ALL in a state of starvation. However, you did say they are “desperately feeding their families” by coming here, did you not? That, in my opinion, indicates they are unable to feed their families at home.

“Dire conditions” is relative and subjective. I have witnessed the poverty in Mexico, and while many are lacking some of the modern conveniences we take for granted, and would indeed be considered dirt poor, when compared with the abject poverty and starvation found in other regions of the world, such as, Darfur, or even Haiti, I doubt most Mexicans would want to trade places.

If we are going to offer refuge to the truly impoverished, I would prefer we help those actually starving and dying on a daily basis, not simply improve the living conditions of our poor neighbors. After all, we also have a huge population of U.S. citizens living in poverty.

As mentioned on numerous occasions, Mexico is not a poor country. The primary problem with Mexico is its culture of corruption, and the greed and insensitively of its oligarchy. While I certainly can empathize with Mexico’s underclass, fleeing to the U.S. is not the solution. As long as they run from their problems, Mexico will never improve.

In my opinion, we should help those in imminent danger, and those willing to help themselves; not simply serve as an enabler for escapism, and a safety valve for the corrupt government of a foreign nation. Perhaps if more Mexicans remained in Mexico and fought for change, Mexico could actually improve, and more U.S. citizens would be willing to lend a helping hand. But, again, I will not embrace their willful violation of our laws. Nor will I justify or defend their actions. That doesn’t mean I’m on a high horse. It simply means I will not compromise my principles, or allow others to put me on a guilt trip to suit their agenda.
Sorry for inserting my replies in the middle. I thought this makes it more clear what I am responding to. I have not learned to separate quotes as others do. I will find a way to learn to do that.

The obesity point: I simply mentioned another reality. So I will have to say we both are correct on our points because to me both situations do exist.

Comparing Mexican poor with other people in the world does not negate they may not be in dire conditions. That reminds me of something I saw a long time ago. When I was in my early 20s I was working as an electrician. One of my peers was working on an electrical box and suddenly not tar fell from the roof as the roofing company people were working on the roof. One of the roof guys made the comment "That is not that bad, we have had people fall in the tar drum". My peer replied "That does not take away the pain I feel, actually it still feels the same".
The same in the point you tried to make. Tell that to some of the people that cannot make ends meet as hard as they can. Do you think they are going to feel less hungry and less desperate to feed their children by telling them other people in the world have it worse? No, not at all. How about the bonafide poor in our country? Do you think we should tell them what you just said also? You are correct that many do not really need to come here but others do fit a criteria for me to say I can understand why they may try a perilous journey and leave their families behind. Do you think they are willing to walk across a desert under a scorching sun to get an extra couch in their home? Many of them do die in the dessert trying to find a job to feed their families. Here is where I disagree with you and many others that seem to make claims that there are no people that are truly in need to find a place to get a job to feed their loved ones. What you claim is also true but I am not going to say your claim is false because I disagree with you. I only present the other reality not mentioned. I must repeat something I have already said because maybe you and others in this debate may spin it as if I am approving for illegal immigration. I only say I truly understand why some people try whatever they can to survive.
Mexico is not a poor country? I also agree with you and yes I also agree there is a lot of corruption because I lived there. That is the reason many people are denied opportunities for a better life so some truly have an understandable reason as to why they may resort to brake our laws, not that I am condoning it, just understand.
What problem do you think they are running from? Not having something to feed their families. How much hope many of them have of asking for the government to provide opportunities? In many cases non so for how long you expect them to keep trying? There is a point every individual makes a choice when to make a sacrifice for the sake of their family.
As far as helping those in imminent danger, good point. I am with that but even then I expect them to request help legally.
This is where other people do not seem to agree with me. I am for legal immigration but I simply express my empathy for those brake our laws in desperation for survival. I do not condemn many of them harshly. Some are criminals in the mean sense but others are simply doing what man human being have done to survive. You may not be on a high horse, others do come across with me that way. It does not apply to you, great. I also am not trying to make you or others guilty of anything. I simply state my views and observations, take care.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:25 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Now you know why I gave up, Benicar.
You gave up because you can't handle stress, take care.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Sorry for inserting my replies in the middle. I thought this makes it more clear what I am responding to. I have not learned to separate quotes as others do. I will find a way to learn to do that.

The obesity point: I simply mentioned another reality. So I will have to say we both are correct on our points because to me both situations do exist.

Comparing Mexican poor with other people in the world does not negate they may not be in dire conditions. That reminds me of something I saw a long time ago. When I was in my early 20s I was working as an electrician. One of my peers was working on an electrical box and suddenly not tar fell from the roof as the roofing company people were working on the roof. One of the roof guys made the comment "That is not that bad, we have had people fall in the tar drum". My peer replied "That does not take away the pain I feel, actually it still feels the same".
The same in the point you tried to make. Tell that to some of the people that cannot make ends meet as hard as they can. Do you think they are going to feel less hungry and less desperate to feed their children by telling them other people in the world have it worse? No, not at all. How about the bonafide poor in our country? Do you think we should tell them what you just said also? You are correct that many do not really need to come here but others do fit a criteria for me to say I can understand why they may try a perilous journey and leave their families behind. Do you think they are willing to walk across a desert under a scorching sun to get an extra couch in their home? Many of them do die in the dessert trying to find a job to feed their families. Here is where I disagree with you and many others that seem to make claims that there are no people that are truly in need to find a place to get a job to feed their loved ones. What you claim is also true but I am not going to say your claim is false because I disagree with you. I only present the other reality not mentioned. I must repeat something I have already said because maybe you and others in this debate may spin it as if I am approving for illegal immigration. I only say I truly understand why some people try whatever they can to survive.
Mexico is not a poor country? I also agree with you and yes I also agree there is a lot of corruption because I lived there. That is the reason many people are denied opportunities for a better life so some truly have an understandable reason as to why they may resort to brake our laws, not that I am condoning it, just understand.
What problem do you think they are running from? Not having something to feed their families. How much hope many of them have of asking for the government to provide opportunities? In many cases non so for how long you expect them to keep trying? There is a point every individual makes a choice when to make a sacrifice for the sake of their family.
As far as helping those in imminent danger, good point. I am with that but even then I expect them to request help legally.
This is where other people do not seem to agree with me. I am for legal immigration but I simply express my empathy for those brake our laws in desperation for survival. I do not condemn many of them harshly. Some are criminals in the mean sense but others are simply doing what man human being have done to survive. You may not be on a high horse, others do come across with me that way. It does not apply to you, great. I also am not trying to make you or others guilty of anything. I simply state my views and observations, take care.
I agree; one groupís suffering is not diminished by the suffering of others. I mentioned Darfur and Haiti not to trivialize poverty in Mexico, rather, to demonstrate that their needs are not as great.

I think some assume an anti-illegal stance indicates a lack of compassion or understanding of the plight of those who come here to seek refuge. That is not true. At least it isnít for me. I do feel their pain, but I also feel the pain of my suffering countrymen who have been displaced by illegals, and are losing their jobs and homes. No one seems to care about them.

Iím sorry, but seeing thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in or streets, demanding rights and privileges reserved for citizens and legal residents, does not elicit compassion, it makes me feel contempt. Their unwavering sense of entitlement, and their lack of appreciation, only compounds the problem. If they wonder why so many are angry, they need only take a look in the mirror. Humility and gratitude will garner much more compassion than arrogance. We owe them nothing. Yet, they refuse to even thank us for the opportunities and benefits they have already received.

Itís time for our laws to be enforced, and itís time for them to leave. Who will help us when our citizens are in dire straits, and our funds are depleted? Will Mexico and other nations welcome 10% or more of our citizens who seek a better life? Not in a million years.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I agree; one groupís suffering is not diminished by the suffering of others. I mentioned Darfur and Haiti not to trivialize poverty in Mexico, rather, to demonstrate that their needs are not as great.

I think some assume an anti-illegal stance indicates a lack of compassion or understanding of the plight of those who come here to seek refuge. That is not true. At least it isnít for me. I do feel their pain, but I also feel the pain of my suffering countrymen who have been displaced by illegals, and are losing their jobs and homes. No one seems to care about them.

Iím sorry, but seeing thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in or streets, demanding rights and privileges reserved for citizens and legal residents, does not elicit compassion, it makes me feel contempt. Their unwavering sense of entitlement, and their lack of appreciation, only compounds the problem. If they wonder why so many are angry, they need only take a look in the mirror. Humility and gratitude will garner much more compassion than arrogance. We owe them nothing. Yet, they refuse to even thank us for the opportunities and benefits they have already received.

Itís time for our laws to be enforced, and itís time for them to leave. Who will help us when our citizens are in dire straits, and our funds are depleted? Will Mexico and other nations welcome 10% or more of our citizens who seek a better life? Not in a million years.
The suffering may not as be as great than other groups but does exist and that is all I look at.
I do simply bring up the suffering from the humanitarian and caring angle.

As much as I also feel for them I am first for my own, Americans. However, I do bring this up because, it may not apply to you, but for some that do give me this uncaring attitude and comment on those people. They confuse compasionate understanding as agreeing with illegal immigration. In some instances they may spin my words as to make me look as if I agree with illegal immigration and in reality they do not like it that I talk about those people in compassionate terms. It seems that it is human nature to demonize in every sense those that are seen as a threat to their own well being. I as a Soldier never lost that the enemy was just like me, sweating it out. Other seem to not understand that and had the need to feel joy in making them look like demons or as bad people.

I do care about our own. My preference is for my fellow citizens. I am with you there.

Now you touched a raw nerve with me. Not something wrong on your part though. It does irritate me when I see illegals waving Mexican flags demonstrating against our need to protect our own. Those I have no compassion for them. They need to go back to Mexico. To me they are bitting the hand that is feeding them. Since they are here illegaly, to say the least should show appreciation for what this country has given them even if they do not deserve it.

I believe now you see I am not actually against your beliefs, I hope so. However, some people in this forum and others can't handle someone simply saying I feel sorry for many of those people and I understand why some may feel they need to do what they do, that is all. That does not mean agreeing with breaking the law or that they are ahead of my fellow American. Not in my book. I wore the Army uniform for 32 year and wore it for the last time no more than a year ago to make sure our fellow citizens come first.

I agree our laws need to be enforced. To me that is a big part of the problem. Why? Because as needy those people may be, they would not come over if they new our laws would not allow them to get a job. The word would spread. Proof? I have read recent articles that less people are coming over now that they hear some states are enacting laws that focus more on their presence here by denying drivers licenses and things like that, take care.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
The suffering may not as be as great than other groups but does exist and that is all I look at.
I do simply bring up the suffering from the humanitarian and caring angle.

As much as I also feel for them I am first for my own, Americans. However, I do bring this up because, it may not apply to you, but for some that do give me this uncaring attitude and comment on those people. They confuse compasionate understanding as agreeing with illegal immigration. In some instances they may spin my words as to make me look as if I agree with illegal immigration and in reality they do not like it that I talk about those people in compassionate terms. It seems that it is human nature to demonize in every sense those that are seen as a threat to their own well being. I as a Soldier never lost that the enemy was just like me, sweating it out. Other seem to not understand that and had the need to feel joy in making them look like demons or as bad people.

I do care about our own. My preference is for my fellow citizens. I am with you there.

Now you touched a raw nerve with me. Not something wrong on your part though. It does irritate me when I see illegals waving Mexican flags demonstrating against our need to protect our own. Those I have no compassion for them. They need to go back to Mexico. To me they are bitting the hand that is feeding them. Since they are here illegaly, to say the least should show appreciation for what this country has given them even if they do not deserve it.

I believe now you see I am not actually against your beliefs, I hope so. However, some people in this forum and others can't handle someone simply saying I feel sorry for many of those people and I understand why some may feel they need to do what they do, that is all. That does not mean agreeing with breaking the law or that they are ahead of my fellow American. Not in my book. I wore the Army uniform for 32 year and wore it for the last time no more than a year ago to make sure our fellow citizens come first.

I agree our laws need to be enforced. To me that is a big part of the problem. Why? Because as needy those people may be, they would not come over if they new our laws would not allow them to get a job. The word would spread. Proof? I have read recent articles that less people are coming over now that they hear some states are enacting laws that focus more on their presence here by denying drivers licenses and things like that, take care.
I have never felt that all who express compassion for illegals are proponents of illegal immigration. However, it does get tiresome when people come to this forum and assume that every anti-illegal is a heartless, rabid bigot.

I also realize there are many U.S. citizens dealing drugs to feed their families. I attended a symposium last year, and met former gang members and drug dealers, and many shared heart-wrenching stories. However, notwithstanding leaving with a newfound understanding of their plight, I still cannot justify or defend drug dealers. Likewise, while I understand why many come here, I still oppose their presence.

Thank you for your service to our country.

Last edited by Benicar; 03-09-2011 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:54 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
You gave up because you can't handle stress, take care.
Yeah, the stress of trying to make sense of your replies.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Yeah, the stress of trying to make sense of your replies.
I know how you feel, the same from here but I did not let it get to me, that's the difference, take care.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:02 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I have never felt that all who express compassion for illegals are proponents of illegal immigration. However, it does get tiresome when people come to this forum and assume that every anti-illegal is a heartless, rabid bigot.

I also realize there are many in this country dealing drugs to feed their families. I attended a symposium last year, and met former gang members and drug dealers, and many shared heart-wrenching stories. However, notwithstanding leaving with a newfound understanding of their plight, I still cannot justify or defend drug dealers. Likewise, while I understand why many come here, I still oppose their presence.

Thank you for your service to our country.
I agree with you. I am also aware that not all anti-illegal immigrants are heartless and rabid bigots. As in any group there are those extremists on any issue.

On the rest of the message I agree with you. You see, we actually are on the same wavelenth. It was an honor to serve you and I thank you for your support. I am glad you did not allow stress get to you as we interacted, take care.
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