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Old 07-25-2007, 09:12 PM
 
743 posts, read 1,153,629 times
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The rhetorical answer to this question by any red-blooded American is a reflexive "NO!"

But, hypothetically, if you owned a business, perhaps in manufacturing or the service industry, hiring illegals could be your financial salvation. Certainly paying lower wages would give you a competitive edge (assuming your competitors played by the rules) over the competition.

Would you be willing to let your business go bankrupt or would you hire illegal workers?
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:37 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jest721 View Post
The rhetorical answer to this question by any red-blooded American is a reflexive "NO!"

But, hypothetically, if you owned a business, perhaps in manufacturing or the service industry, hiring illegals could be your financial salvation. Certainly paying lower wages would give you a competitive edge (assuming your competitors played by the rules) over the competition.

Would you be willing to let your business go bankrupt or would you hire illegal workers?
It isn't necessary to hire illegal workers to save a business. It takes creativity; networking for better economies of scale; deferring enormous working capital payments to CEOs, CFOs, management at various levels; offering results-based earnings plans to workers presently employed and advising unions to approach with results-based plans that help create increased productivity to make the company more competitive when required (who wouldn't defer some income to keep the company going rather than be laid-off?); laying aside much larger reserves to fend off foreign competitors that are subsidized by their governments; investing much greater amounts in R&D (rather than payments to upper-echelon types and shareholders); investment in state-of-the-art equipment that dramatically increases productivity; retraining personnel for new technologies as the company advances; and on and on and on and on . . .

Businesses that hire illegal workers milk the tax system and the taxpayers have to either foot the bills to make up for lost tax revenue or say bye-bye to the programs. Some day we’ll learn to use the tax system differently. The way it’s set up now it INVITES milking and this illegal alien rush is created by businesses too greedy for returns NOW and/or unwilling to put out energy required to be creative. After all, it’s so much easier to milk the tax system and replace laid-off personnel with illegal workers (or legal immigrants who’ll work for peanuts). Being creative is . . . hard . . . it's . . . hard work.

Government entwined with business in a Gordian knot has caused this monumental gate-crashing.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:00 PM
 
743 posts, read 1,153,629 times
Reputation: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
It isn't necessary to hire illegal workers to save a business. It takes creativity; networking for better economies of scale; deferring enormous working capital payments to CEOs, CFOs, management at various levels; offering results-based earnings plans to workers presently employed and advising unions to approach with results-based plans that help create increased productivity to make the company more competitive when required (who wouldn't defer some income to keep the company going rather than be laid-off?); laying aside much larger reserves to fend off foreign competitors that are subsidized by their governments; investing much greater amounts in R&D (rather than payments to upper-echelon types and shareholders); investment in state-of-the-art equipment that dramatically increases productivity; retraining personnel for new technologies as the company advances; and on and on and on and on . . .

Businesses that hire illegal workers milk the tax system and the taxpayers have to either foot the bills to make up for lost tax revenue or say bye-bye to the programs. Some day weíll learn to use the tax system differently. The way itís set up now it INVITES milking and this illegal alien rush is created by businesses too greedy for returns NOW and/or unwilling to put out energy required to be creative. After all, itís so much easier to milk the tax system and replace laid-off personnel with illegal workers (or legal immigrants whoíll work for peanuts). Being creative is . . . hard . . . it's . . . hard work.

Government entwined with business in a Gordian knot has caused this monumental gate-crashing.
Many of the issues you address are irrelevant. I admit that my manufactured hypothetical comes from my own experiences in a non-union state, small business.

I know it doesn't address all of them, but your solution seems to be to lower wages and throw all the extra money at the problem. Renegotiate lower wages, invest in R&D, implement performance-based incentives, purchase equipment to improve efficiency etc. Looks great in textbooks, but it's impractical.

If I own a house cleaning business, why would I pay 12 dollars an hour for a legal worker when I could get the same job done for half that? If the viability of my livelihood is at stake, why not higher lower wage workers?

As to throwing money at the problem, manufacturing equimpment is not cheap. Incentives cost me money. I have to compete with domestic businesses and China as well. Why not browbeat an illegal worker into producing adequate quotas, I have the bottom line to worry about.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:18 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by jest721 View Post
Many of the issues you address are irrelevant. I admit that my manufactured hypothetical comes from my own experiences in a non-union state, small business.

I know it doesn't address all of them, but your solution seems to be to lower wages and throw all the extra money at the problem. Renegotiate lower wages, invest in R&D, implement performance-based incentives, purchase equipment to improve efficiency etc. Looks great in textbooks, but it's impractical.

If I own a house cleaning business, why would I pay 12 dollars an hour for a legal worker when I could get the same job done for half that? If the viability of my livelihood is at stake, why not higher lower wage workers?

As to throwing money at the problem, manufacturing equimpment is not cheap. Incentives cost me money. I have to compete with domestic businesses and China as well. Why not browbeat an illegal worker into producing adequate quotas, I have the bottom line to worry about.
Your suggestion that these solutions are impractical goes to show why we're in this mess. Results-based programs aren't a renegotiation of a lower wage, they're programs to defer income so everybody keeps their jobs and then benefits from profit-sharing programs on a quarterly basis, for example, rather than counting on a long-term profit-sharing program way out in the future.

There are a great many ways to accomplish staying in business that are simply not done because your way is so much easier.

I don't know your business, but if I imagined such a business--not that I'm a genius businessman by any stretch of the imagination or I'd be rich and retired--I have confidence I could come up with some ideas to run such a business WITHOUT having to find the lowest possible wage to pay my employees.

Sorry, but you're way off if your statements are applied in a general sense. And my comments were directed at larger businesses and especially, but not limited to, manufacturing businesses as that is my background.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:25 PM
 
743 posts, read 1,153,629 times
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In my original hypolthetical, I should have specified that I am considering a small business, probably in the service or manufacturing industries, privately held.

I believe that small business is the lifeblood of the US economy, so what are your alternative solutions for these situations?
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:06 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jest721 View Post
In my original hypolthetical, I should have specified that I am considering a small business, probably in the service or manufacturing industries, privately held.

I believe that small business is the lifeblood of the US economy, so what are your alternative solutions for these situations?
Absolutely! Small business is the lifeblood of America. And the neocons are doing everything possible to make mega-corporations the lifeblood because the economy can be controlled much easier that way.

America's economy can be turned around and the middle class can be recovered--and fortified this time--by the creation of a great many new small businesses while simultaneously increasing the productivity (which translates in profitability) of existing small and medium size businesses.

I don't know your business, I wish I did. But, from my experiences in a small manufacturing business (165 employees), networking with existing businesses to perform services, and working to use equipment and facilities in combination to accomplish various activities that benefit all in various ways, can achieve economies of scale that a business alone is many times unable to achieve. Of coure, there are the standard efficiency-increasing and cost-reduction activities that must always be an ongoing priority; all else must occur along with, not instead of, these high-priority activities.

In a very small business in the service industry, it seems as though the ownership could achieve an increase in personal income by owning other income-generating businesses, possibly in the same market. Maybe offer employees ownership or current-earnings profit sharing that would increase incomes over what may be a low wage--provided that certain profitability targets are achieved. The working capital saved could be used to begin another business as an adjunct, not dependent upon but maybe influenced by the main business. I'd have to get to know the specific situation to come up with something concrete.

I have confidence it can be done.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:17 PM
 
Location: In an illegal immigrant free part of the country.
2,087 posts, read 1,058,109 times
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If you look at who is hiring the most illegals it is the buggest companies making enormous profits.

Where I live the police actually follow the law and immediately pick up illegals. I would hire them long enough to turn them in.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Texas- moving back to New England!
556 posts, read 480,669 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by jest721 View Post
The rhetorical answer to this question by any red-blooded American is a reflexive "NO!"

But, hypothetically, if you owned a business, perhaps in manufacturing or the service industry, hiring illegals could be your financial salvation. Certainly paying lower wages would give you a competitive edge (assuming your competitors played by the rules) over the competition.

Would you be willing to let your business go bankrupt or would you hire illegal workers?
I'd rather go out of business and start over in something else. Hiring illegals is in itself ILLEGAL. It goes against my grain to do so anyway because those border jumpers didn't earn the right to be in my country. Second, I'd turn all I could in to the Immigration office (not that they would do anything about it!).
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 90,161 times
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Originally Posted by citigirl View Post
I would hire them long enough to turn them in.
And to turn yourself in for hiring them.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:37 AM
 
1,210 posts, read 1,043,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citigirl View Post
If you look at who is hiring the most illegals it is the buggest companies making enormous profits.

Where I live the police actually follow the law and immediately pick up illegals. I would hire them long enough to turn them in.
I would hire them long enough to turn them in, Good Idea
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