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Old 07-26-2007, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,692,551 times
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Who will roof the houses? Oh I dont know, the hundreds or thousands of citizens they displaced. My brother in law for one, three of my cousins, my husband at one time a few of our closest friends.Trust me we have PLENTY to do it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
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Then who will do your Brother-In-Law's current job? Who will do your cousin's or your husband's, or your closest friend's current jobs?
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,692,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
Then who will do your Brother-In-Law's current job? Who will do your cousin's or your husband's, or your closest friend's current jobs?
Please dont give me the doing the jobs americans wont do crap. I know plenty willing able and eager to do the work. And who will do my husbands job and cousins jobs? young people wanting to get into the field, know plenty of them as well. My oldest for one but couldnt get hired, illegals got the jobs.
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,687,600 times
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Please dont give me the my kid didn't get hired because of illegal immigrants crap.



I have no doubt that US citizens will do the jobs illegal immigrants are willing to do. All we need to do is make illegal immigrants US citizens, and viola! If they weren't illegal anymore, they could demand better wages and go on strike. Then your oldest could come in and scab.


But seriously. That argument (Americans won't do those jobs) is crap, and I'm not making it. I'm saying that there is low unemployment, that economists have studied the matter and have theorized that it cannot go much lower.

If you remove a significant percentage of the employed population when unemployment is low, you will have more jobs than people. It is bad when necessary work doesn't get done.

This isn't rocket science.
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:46 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,293,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
Please dont give me the my kid didn't get hired because of illegal immigrants crap.



I have no doubt that US citizens will do the jobs illegal immigrants are willing to do. All we need to do is make illegal immigrants US citizens, and viola! If they weren't illegal anymore, they could demand better wages and go on strike. Then your oldest could come in and scab.


But seriously. That argument (Americans won't do those jobs) is crap, and I'm not making it. I'm saying that there is low unemployment, that economists have studied the matter and have theorized that it cannot go much lower.

If you remove a significant percentage of the employed population when unemployment is low, you will have more jobs than people. It is bad when necessary work doesn't get done.

This isn't rocket science.
And you're oversimplifying it. And you're on the wrong track. And you're buying into the "we who own America will rule America" theory of economics.
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,687,600 times
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Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
And you're oversimplifying it. And you're on the wrong track. And you're buying into the "we who own America will rule America" theory of economics.
Explain it to me, then. Especially the economic theory I subscribe to.
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:53 PM
 
763 posts, read 1,293,871 times
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Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
Explain it to me, then. Especially the economic theory I subscribe to.
The “we who own America will rule America” theory? Well, just running through some of the basics:

Buy government representation at all levels wherever possible and strive to cover more effectively those areas where resistance prevents or limits said purchasing.

Buy legislation that creates tax codes, rules, regulations, and legislation that often promotes unsound business decisions and, for the most part, stimulates the business community to merge and acquire, to increase profits by reducing costs without increasing productivity, to find every opportunity to shove working capital into the hands of shareholders most of whom are unconnected and couldn’t care less about the employees, the business OR productivity as they are simply ready for the next jump into the next profit-taking move, and on and on ad infinitum.

Invite the business community with the aforementioned carrots to replace workers with wage-slave types who will do as they’re told without argument (this requires a constant push to make more people available than jobs). Skim off as much as possible to owners/managers/shareholders, after all, it really didn’t cost that much working capital, there is the tax system after all.

Stifle creativity by encouraging business decisions that game the tax system and instead make profits on the books without increasing efficiencies, investing in R&D, or investing in state-of-the-art equipment to increase productivity and competitiveness for the global market.

Stifle creativity by encouraging investments overseas instead of America and, further, permit most of the profits—not gained by increased productivity but instead by lowered costs for labor—to be sheltered off shore.

I could go on for quite awhile with this, but the idea with the government/mega-corp/military plutocracy is to manipulate the economy for the gains of the very few who will own America for all intents and purposes. No doubt you’ve read studies showing the dramatic shift in the total assets of America into the hands of a tiny fraction of the citizenry.

The idea behind this theory is that the more people in America fighting for the scraps will have to spend whatever they have to survive, and the skimming-off-the-top crowd makes out like bandits—literally. The more immigrants, legal or illegal, the bigger the human resource pool; the bigger the human resource pool, the more rapidly the borrowed or freshly-printed funny money can be circulated and the more skimming can be done.

It’s a merry-go-round but the only ones grabbing the brass rings are the owners/operators of said entertainment device.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,687,600 times
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Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Actually, I think that's a bit of a conspiracy theory. I do believe that the system is slanted toward those with the money to buy out the politicians, but that is a whole 'nother issue. Let's stick with the immigration part for now.

There is no doubt that a glut of workers will depress wages. I can see that. However, more people means more demand for products and services as well, which means more demand for workers, which means higher wages.

I believe we can absorb hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year while expanding the economy to gainfully employ all of them without driving down wages and shrinking the middle class.

We already are absorbing the immigrants but the problem is that they are outside the system and afraid to organize to demand a living wage. Some of my neighbors live 2-3 families to a single apartment, just to get by on the sort of wages that get paid to undocumented unskilled labor and those sort of living conditions are both unacceptable and the entire reason that wages are low. We all suffer lower wages because we are competing with people who have no choice but to suffer low wages for fear of deportation.

Legalizing illegal aliens, securing the border, and allowing in a large enough number of immigrants that people are willing to wait in line and be documented, rather than try to cross the newly-fortified border, should transform the giant pool of unskilled undocumented underpaid untaxed slave labor into a pool of fully-paid fully-taxed unskilled laborers with the chance to improve their skills and legally pull themselves and their children up to become middle-class. Just like preceeding generations of immigrants have done.

I believe historical precedent is on the side of my argument. That's why I cite the Irish, Chinese, and other waves of immigrants. The difference is that they had the chance to become citizens in massive numbers, while todays laws prevent all but a handful (~50,000/year but Mexico and some other Latin American countries are excluded.) from following in the footsteps of previous immigration waves.

Make no mistake, I AM saying ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A PROBLEM. I think the solution is to fix the laws creating undocumented slave laborers, rather than try to seal the borders. I can't think of a single historical precedent where a country has been able to seal their borders against a wave of immigrants while still maintaining their power and prestige in the world.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:24 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,003,968 times
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Before we do anything to address the internal illegal alien problem we need comprehensive border enforcement. Get the border secured with a fence and the military. The invasion has to stop. Mexico is harming this nation with its illegal alien army and it has to stop, by the use of military force.

Then expand the enforcement by punishing those willing to harm Americans by hiring illegal aliens. Any legalization process that would follow has to recognize the fact that ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS are criminals and a criminal conviction and jail sentence has to occur, as well as seizure of all ill gotten goods.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:57 PM
JD. JD. started this thread
 
Location: Oklahoma
198 posts, read 433,526 times
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However you feel about the issue, granting illegals who are currently here amnesty is a big mistake. The message you're sending to any future illegal immigrant is that if you happen to make it into the U.S. all you have to do is hold out for a couple of years and wait for the next amnesty to roll around. It sends a bad message that the U.S. only enforces the laws it chooses and it makes our legal system less credible.

I think a great solution was Sen. Hutchison's amendment that she offered up when the Grand Bargain was on the floor last month. It required all illegal immigrants in the country currently to return to their country of origin for a certain period of time before they could even begin apply for citizenship, essentially making them get in the back of the line.

Here's an analogy. Remember the lunch line in grade school? We all learned that we couldn't budge in line because our teachers would pick us out of line and send us to the back. Now, imagine a few kids decided to budge and the teacher just ignored them or WORSE appeased them and gave them their food before you! Makes it a little more tempting to get out of line and go to the front knowing there is no consequence.

When you make them return to their country of origin and THEN apply for citizenship, it sends the message that you're serious about the rules of our nation and you can't weasle your way out of them.

My Solution:

1. Secure the borders using whatever means necessary. Armed National Guard, by actually building the fence that was supposed to be built and was funded for, unmaned drones, etc.

2. Allow law enforcement to check anyone's immigration status, even if they just commit a traffic violation.

3. Revoke federal money to any city/state/county that refuses to comply with federal immigration laws (aka sanctuary cities/states).

4. Force employers to use federal database to check all employee's social security numbers to prove they are valid.

My Solution To Deal With Illegals Already Here:

1. Deny all social services to anyone without valid social security number, birth certificate, etc. (Excepty for emergencies)

2. Deport all illegal felons ASAP (we've seen the consequences of not doing that i.e. Zina Linnik, Jocelyn Gardiner, etc.), and bar them from every coming back to the country.

3. Require all other illegals to return to their country of origin and apply for citizenship at the BACK of the line.


Probably way to simplistic but oh well, if only I was president...
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