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Old 07-27-2007, 12:36 PM
 
Location: VA
786 posts, read 4,228,082 times
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Everyone is for Border Security but I do not see any plan to get stricter with Visa overstays. About half of the illegal aliens in this country came to America legally on a tourist or other type of Visa. Or in some cases they just came from a country that can visit America with just a Passport. When it came time for them to leave they just started hiding and stayed.

Why don't they crack down on people who overstay after coming into America as a legal tourist? Is it because they are more likely to be from a Middle Class background?
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:46 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,004,847 times
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I don't think anyone is ignoring the fact we have illegals here that have overstayed there visas. Most illegal alien opponents simply want the border secured first, THEN internal enforcement. And there are very practical reasons for doing it this way. Our jails and prisons nationwide are averaging around at 28% illegal aliens. And most of them are being held on extremely violent crimes. I don't think the IT specialist that overstays his visa is as much of a threat to the safety and security of the American people as the illegal alien that crosses our southern border.

I do agree, we need internal enforcement as well, but we should clamp down on the border first because these are the ones most likely to murder, rape, deal/transport drugs, steal cars and burglar houses. On a side note, I used to be a corrections officer. The numbers of illegal aliens on ICE holds in our jails for committing terrible crimes is unbelievable, and it has to stop.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,689,364 times
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The law is unclear on visa overstays. They are not "illegal" because they entered legally "with inspection" at a major point of entry. They are considered to have "unlawful" presence. Meaning they didn't commit an offense, they just didn't follow the rules. The penalty is that they cannot leave the country or they will be barred from returning for 3 or 10 years depending on how long they overstayed their visa.

FYI, most visa overstays are students who graduated with an advanced degree and found work here. The law is very stupid in this regard. Anyone who gets a real degree from an accredited university should be given an automatic green card after passing a basic English and civics test! China/India are graduating hundreds of thousands more engineers than we are every year, and yet we send 1/3 of our graduates back to these countries!?

Why are we educating people, then forcing them to return overseas to compete for our jobs and start businesses outside the country!?? That's just insane! Automatic work visas (and green cards) for anyone who completes a BA, BS, MS, or any "real" degree at an accredited university! It is so stupid to educate, say, an engineer here, then send him back to China to build ICBMs pointed at us!
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:40 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,004,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
The law is unclear on visa overstays. They are not "illegal" because they entered legally "with inspection" at a major point of entry. They are considered to have "unlawful" presence. Meaning they didn't commit an offense, they just didn't follow the rules. The penalty is that they cannot leave the country or they will be barred from returning for 3 or 10 years depending on how long they overstayed their visa.

FYI, most visa overstays are students who graduated with an advanced degree and found work here. The law is very stupid in this regard. Anyone who gets a real degree from an accredited university should be given an automatic green card after passing a basic English and civics test! China/India are graduating hundreds of thousands more engineers than we are every year, and yet we send 1/3 of our graduates back to these countries!?

Why are we educating people, then forcing them to return overseas to compete for our jobs and start businesses outside the country!?? That's just insane! Automatic work visas (and green cards) for anyone who completes a BA, BS, MS, or any "real" degree at an accredited university! It is so stupid to educate, say, an engineer here, then send him back to China to build ICBMs pointed at us!
Or even better yet, don't allow our colleges and universities to enroll foreign students unless they offer the spot to an American first. We have plenty of Americans that are turned down for admission that would love to take these spots. This way there is no visa overstay, no degree holder moving back to China. Only an American with a degree that otherwise wouldn't have had one.
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,694,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
Or even better yet, don't allow our colleges and universities to enroll foreign students unless they offer the spot to an American first. We have plenty of Americans that are turned down for admission that would love to take these spots. This way there is no visa overstay, no degree holder moving back to China. Only an American with a degree that otherwise wouldn't have had one.
Now that idea I like.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,689,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
Or even better yet, don't allow our colleges and universities to enroll foreign students unless they offer the spot to an American first. We have plenty of Americans that are turned down for admission that would love to take these spots. This way there is no visa overstay, no degree holder moving back to China. Only an American with a degree that otherwise wouldn't have had one.
Wow. This is patently untrue. Universities cannot beg, borrow, or steal enough US citizens to fill their classes--especially for technical MS courses. Masters programs aren't made up of mostly foreigners because Universities go out and do overseas recruiting, they're simply trying to get bodies to fill chairs.

Seriously, as a US citizen looking for an advanced degree, I've got my pick of MS programs. You wouldn't believe the things some Universities are offering me. It's nice to feel wanted.

Undergrad is a different story, it's true. But there aren't so many foreigners in undergraduate studies. Definately not crowding out US citizens. In fact, most state-run universities have quotas--as part of their fed funding--to make sure that they fill classes with locals and citizens first. They'll still bring in an underqualified (within reason) US citizen kid over an overqualified foreigner on days ending in "y".
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:54 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,004,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
Wow. This is patently untrue. Universities cannot beg, borrow, or steal enough US citizens to fill their classes--especially for technical MS courses.

Yeah, right! At least that's what we're supposed to believe.
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:42 PM
 
3,748 posts, read 7,213,486 times
Reputation: 4825
Quote:
The law is unclear on visa overstays. They are not "illegal" because they entered legally "with inspection" at a major point of entry. They are considered to have "unlawful" presence. Meaning they didn't commit an offense, they just didn't follow the rules. The penalty is that they cannot leave the country or they will be barred from returning for 3 or 10 years depending on how long they overstayed their visa.
Is this for real? This is like a criminal who is caught stealing a car and he tells the judge, "Your honor, I didn't commit an offense. I just didn't follow the rules." What's the point of giving people visa in the first place if we let them overstay. A visa is a legal document. When you get your visa, you agree to the term of that document. It's a crime when people over stay their visa. Those people should be deported immediately.

Quote:
FYI, most visa overstays are students who graduated with an advanced degree and found work here. The law is very stupid in this regard. Anyone who gets a real degree from an accredited university should be given an automatic green card after passing a basic English and civics test! China/India are graduating hundreds of thousands more engineers than we are every year, and yet we send 1/3 of our graduates back to these countries!?
They should be given nothing. Legal residency is this country is a privilege, not a right. If they want to stay, then they can apply for residency. Overstaying their visa in order to stay is illegal. Anyone caught doing that should sent back home.

Quote:
Why are we educating people, then forcing them to return overseas to compete for our jobs and start businesses outside the country!?? That's just insane! Automatic work visas (and green cards) for anyone who completes a BA, BS, MS, or any "real" degree at an accredited university! It is so stupid to educate, say, an engineer here, then send him back to China to build ICBMs pointed at us!
Don't make up things out of thin air to support your argument. No one is forcing anyone to return to their country. Have you ever heard of the US government forcing people to return before their visas expire? Now that would qualify as forcing people to return home. Enforcing our immigration law to ensure that everyone complies with the law is not the same thing.

Don't even go there with the stuff about foreign students going back home and start business in their countries and Chinese students making ICBMs that point to America. Many foreign students go back home to help build their countries. It's a noble thing to do, and that's the reason many of them go to school abroad. People have pointed their ICBMs at the other countries before visas existed. You insult people's intelligence with this nonsense.

Last edited by davidt1; 07-27-2007 at 04:54 PM..
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,689,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
Is this for real? This is like a criminal who is caught stealing a car and he tells the judge, "Your honor, I didn't commit an offense. I just didn't follow the rules." What's the point of giving people visa in the first place if we let them overstay. A visa is a legal document. When you get your visa, you agree to the term of that document. It's a crime when people over stay their visa. Those people should be deported immediately.
Actually it's not a crime. If a resturant invites you inside to eat and you hang out after dinner without ordering anything else, they aren't allowed to shoot you as a trespasser. They are allowed to ask you leave and not invite you back in, in the future.


Quote:
They should be given nothing. Legal residency is this country is a privilege, not a right. If they want to stay, then they can apply for residency.
65,000 H1B visas are available every year. Hundreds of thousands of college graduates graduate on a student visa, find good jobs or start businesses with their OPT, which allows them one year of job training, and then apply for an H1B to continue their gainful employment and taxpaying in the US.

Because of the shortage of H1B visas, hundreds of thousands of them are forced to return to their country of origin to, yes, build ICBMS for China or work in a tech support center in India where US jobs are offshored.

Quote:
Overstaying their visa in order to stay is illegal. Anyone caught doing that should sent back home.
It is unlawful. You do not recognize the difference because you do not have enough knowledge of what you are talking about. Overstaying a visa is not an offense which usually results in deportation.

Quote:
Don't make up things out of thin air to support your argument. No one is forcing anyone to return to their country. Have you ever heard of the US government forcing people to return before their visas expire? Now that would qualify as forcing people to return home. Enforcing our immigration law to ensure that everyone complies with the law is not the same thing.
I'm not making this up. They are working for US companies building ICBMs pointed at China. They are paying taxes. They are demanding competetive wages. They are being good community members. When their OPT expires, they are then returning to China and building ICBMs pointed at us. They would rather stay here because the pay and lifstyle is better.

Our immigration laws are insane! We are educating our enemies and competitors best and brightest and then sending them home to take our jobs and build weapons to kill us! If we had one iota of sense, we would steal those bright kids and keep them here! If we had a little less sense, we would at least prevent them from coming here for an education in the first place!

Quote:
Don't even go there with the stuff about foreign students going back home and start business in their countries and Chinese students making ICBMs that point to America.
What part of this do you not understand? This is happening as we type. Pretending it doesn't exist won't solve anything. Do you have any logical counters or are you just so strongly against immigration that you don't mind if the country continues to disembowl itself of it's technical lifeblood of engineers and scientists, so long as it keeps the foreigners out?

Quote:
Many foreign students go back home to help build their countries. It's a noble thing to do, and that's the reason many of them go to school abroad.
Many, but not most. Just look at the number of H1B applications! On April 2nd, 2007, the day the visa application process opened 150,000 applications were recieved. Subtract 65,000 who actually get visas, and you get 85,000 smart kids we are sending home so that companies can offshore US jobs to them. And that's just in ONE day. And these are the people who found an employer willing to pay 5K in fees and then wait until October for them to start their jobs.

And this is actually a broken system anyway, as the H1-B visa turns the employees into indentured servants who depress wages because they can't quit or change companies.

The H1-B system is broken. It should be eliminated and replaced with conditional green cards. If you are educated here, we want you to stay here and put that education to use for the benefit of the US. Pass an English test, pass a civics test, stay gainfully employed, pay your taxes for five years, and you can stay with conditions on your green card removed and start applying for citizenship. That's the solution here.
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:20 PM
 
3,748 posts, read 7,213,486 times
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When you quote me, have the courtesy to to quote me in context. This is what I said:

Quote:
Don't even go there with the stuff about foreign students going back home and start business in their countries and Chinese students making ICBMs that point to America. Many foreign students go back home to help build their countries. It's a noble thing to do, and that's the reason many of them go to school abroad. People have pointed their ICBMs at the other countries before visas existed. You insult people's intelligence with this nonsense.
Countries have always pointed their ICBMs at other countries long before visas existed. This issue has nothing to do with visas. Do not use this nonsense to scare people. Skilled people from foreign countries apply and receive permission to come and work here legally every year. The system works. The people who overstay their visas are as illegal as those who cross the border illegally. Do not make excuses for law breakers and expect people to agree with you.

Last edited by Yac; 07-28-2007 at 06:06 AM.. Reason: personal attack
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