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Old 06-03-2011, 11:59 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,165,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
IBM, for me it's been a slow progression ever since the last amnesty in the 80's. Which by the way should prove that amnesty solves nothing but only encourages more illegal immigration. Why wouldn't they come? It's just a matter of them getting in and holding up for the next amnesty. We're perceived as weak.

Also, over the years theres been little incidents and experiences that really never amounted to anything, but over time it becomes a build up. It's probably been less than a decade that I've felt this strongly about it.

It's the catering to them that is a deal breaker and their demanding attitude as well. It's mind blowing how our government allowed this, and even encouraged these illegals with the lure of assistance. It's also just as mind blowing how these illegals demand rights here.

You ask about perception? I think a huge percentage of illegal immigrants are actually hard working, family oriented people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. But, that's what every potential immigrant from every corner of the globe wants to come here for, and it's no excuse to jump the fence or cut in line. There's no justification whatsoever to allow an illegal alien a pass, just because he or she successfully broke the law and made it in to our country.

Family? My family was raised to be proud of their heritage! No shame in that, that's what made this country, legal immigrants and American born citizens. But, we are Americans first!!! I have Mexican family members as well as European, all of which came in to this country the right way and all of which acclimated, excepted English as their first language, and are Americans first and foremost.
Excellent post and I applaud you for setting aside your ethnic ties and putting this country and its citizens first.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,048,658 times
Reputation: 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Excellent post and I applaud you for setting aside your ethnic ties and putting this country and its citizens first.
Thanks Chicagonut. That just how my parents raised us. Actually, it's a pretty typical attitude of immigrants that choose to come to this country the correct way. It's also a sense of pride and accomplishment.
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,585 posts, read 3,890,370 times
Reputation: 2681
For the longest time I was against illegals. Then I did some critical thinking on the matter and realized the obvious: We aren't even trying to stop it and even if we were trying we would fail anyways. Magic numbers that tell me it's impossible: 2000 miles of border with Mexico + 20,000 miles of US coastline. How on earth do you police ALL OF THAT???

So now I'm still against the idea of them coming here illegally, but now I'm seeing the obvious truth: We need to take the illegal flood coming in and find a way to make it a legal flow of immigration. Stubbornly holding the quota at 1 million isn't working. Some form of accommodation must be reached. We lack the means to hunt down and deport every single illegal. So we need to make some deal that offers a path to citizenship. Learning to speak English would be an important starting point. Perhaps do it the Roman way and have them serve in the military for 5 years or something. Perhaps have them pay a substantial fine. But right now they're reaping all the benefits of what our tax dollars are spent on while not paying anything in and that just ain't right. Things that need to happen:
1.) Secure the border.
2.) Significantly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed in each year.
3.) Get those that are already here on a path to citizenship so we can see an end to the free-loading.
4.) Find the right equilibrium of legal immigration so illegal immigration is minimized.

Now I'll be happy to return to my "keep the dirty bastages out!" stance if anyone can actually explain how that's even possible short of turning the USA into a totalitarian police state completely surrounded by massive walls.
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:02 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,165,382 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
For the longest time I was against illegals. Then I did some critical thinking on the matter and realized the obvious: We aren't even trying to stop it and even if we were trying we would fail anyways. Magic numbers that tell me it's impossible: 2000 miles of border with Mexico + 20,000 miles of US coastline. How on earth do you police ALL OF THAT???

So now I'm still against the idea of them coming here illegally, but now I'm seeing the obvious truth: We need to take the illegal flood coming in and find a way to make it a legal flow of immigration. Stubbornly holding the quota at 1 million isn't working. Some form of accommodation must be reached. We lack the means to hunt down and deport every single illegal. So we need to make some deal that offers a path to citizenship. Learning to speak English would be an important starting point. Perhaps do it the Roman way and have them serve in the military for 5 years or something. Perhaps have them pay a substantial fine. But right now they're reaping all the benefits of what our tax dollars are spent on while not paying anything in and that just ain't right. Things that need to happen:
1.) Secure the border.
2.) Significantly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed in each year.
3.) Get those that are already here on a path to citizenship so we can see an end to the free-loading.
4.) Find the right equilibrium of legal immigration so illegal immigration is minimized.

Now I'll be happy to return to my "keep the dirty bastages out!" stance if anyone can actually explain how that's even possible short of turning the USA into a totalitarian police state completely surrounded by massive walls.
You do realize why we have quotas on legal immigration, don't you? Anything beyond those set quotas would be harmful to our country but your plan is to let them all come anyway regardless of that harmful impact? Please think about what you are advocating. Your plan is to throw in the towel to these illegal invaders. Giving up isn't what made this country great.

If you would read the numerous posts in here it isn't just about our need to secure our borders but to step up internal enforcement and remove all incentives for illegals to come here. We will never stop illegal immigration 100% but if these things were implemented we would put a huge dent in it.

Rewarding unlawful behavior is never the answer either. We tried that in 1986 and look where we are today. The only wall that was promised is about 700 miless of our southern border in the most porous places. How would we be turning ourselves into a police state when an American would be able come and go all they want to?
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:07 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 30,400,683 times
Reputation: 28974
Default What Started You on Your Position on Illegal Immigration?

Elementary myu dear IBM. A complete dislike, disrespect and disregard for law-breakers (former cop here) and living in California for too many years.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,239,959 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
For the longest time I was against illegals. Then I did some critical thinking on the matter and realized the obvious: We aren't even trying to stop it and even if we were trying we would fail anyways. Magic numbers that tell me it's impossible: 2000 miles of border with Mexico + 20,000 miles of US coastline. How on earth do you police ALL OF THAT???

So now I'm still against the idea of them coming here illegally, but now I'm seeing the obvious truth: We need to take the illegal flood coming in and find a way to make it a legal flow of immigration. Stubbornly holding the quota at 1 million isn't working. Some form of accommodation must be reached. We lack the means to hunt down and deport every single illegal. So we need to make some deal that offers a path to citizenship. Learning to speak English would be an important starting point. Perhaps do it the Roman way and have them serve in the military for 5 years or something. Perhaps have them pay a substantial fine. But right now they're reaping all the benefits of what our tax dollars are spent on while not paying anything in and that just ain't right. Things that need to happen:
1.) Secure the border.
2.) Significantly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed in each year.
3.) Get those that are already here on a path to citizenship so we can see an end to the free-loading.
4.) Find the right equilibrium of legal immigration so illegal immigration is minimized.

Now I'll be happy to return to my "keep the dirty bastages out!" stance if anyone can actually explain how that's even possible short of turning the USA into a totalitarian police state completely surrounded by massive walls.
Close the southern border. Water keeps many other illegals OUT. Enfore our laws. Arizona 1070 the law thru the USA. End birthright.

Most illegals will leave fast. Real fast. And the rest can be can be snagged by polite profiling.

A few illegals will always slip thru but will be quiet.
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:26 PM
 
753 posts, read 442,316 times
Reputation: 433
I'm unable to look at this as an American who understands borders and laws. I really can only see it as a human being. Its easy to say they should stay in Mexico when your in the US. Just think about it as a person:

- You need money to take care of yourself and your family. You're living conditions are terrible.
- You don't have a years worth of time. (Time to go through the process)
- You don't have thousands of dollars. (Amount of money needed to go through the process)
- You're in a country where the Drug Cartel run rampant with ridiculous amounts of power.
- A country near by can bring much needed opportunity.

I bet nearly everyone in this thread would immigrate illegally, under those circumstances. I know damn sure I would. Under those circumstances, theirs absolutely nothing immoral or wrong with it...
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:57 PM
 
304 posts, read 342,962 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
I'm unable to look at this as an American who understands borders and laws. I really can only see it as a human being. Its easy to say they should stay in Mexico when your in the US. Just think about it as a person:

- You need money to take care of yourself and your family. You're living conditions are terrible.
- You don't have a years worth of time. (Time to go through the process)
- You don't have thousands of dollars. (Amount of money needed to go through the process)
- You're in a country where the Drug Cartel run rampant with ridiculous amounts of power.
- A country near by can bring much needed opportunity.

I bet nearly everyone in this thread would immigrate illegally, under those circumstances. I know damn sure I would. Under those circumstances, theirs absolutely nothing immoral or wrong with it...
How about this, I'm unemployed and have a family to support. Would you feel the same if I broke into your house because it is much nicer than living on the street; I can't wait a year because my family would starve so I'm going to eat your food; I'm unemployed so I don't have any money therefore I'm going to take yours; I'm in the USA where the government has a ridiculous amount of power so I'm going to hide out in your house; your house provides me and my family with an incredible opportunity to survive. That is how I feel about it.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,585 posts, read 3,890,370 times
Reputation: 2681
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagout
You do realize why we have quotas on legal immigration, don't you? Anything beyond those set quotas would be harmful to our country but your plan is to let them all come anyway regardless of that harmful impact? Please think about what you are advocating. Your plan is to throw in the towel to these illegal invaders. Giving up isn't what made this country great.
Actually, I did mention the quotas we have. It comes out to roughly 1 million people per year. It is completely unprovable that this number is the right number. The mass-migration from Europe to the USA that grew this nation from irrelevant to great was almost entirely unrestricted. We didn't have limits and we very often ignored our own immigration laws - making them citizens the day they stepped off the boat instead of making them wait for several years. It was a chaotic era but it didn't destroy the USA, it made us bigger and better. The problems that did result could have been avoided certainly, but in the end, it did not collapse the United States of America to have an unchecked and unlimited flow of immigrants coming into our nation.

Can you prove that it would be harmful to allow 10 million new immigrants per year under properly controlled circumstances? What makes 1 million the ideal magical number? Why does 10 million destroy us while 1 million doesn't?

Now consider that we're dealing with a mass migration from south of the border. Lots of Mexicans and lots of every other nationality down there. I think we can and should be smarter than we were in the 1800's. We can put requirements such as speaking English, not engaging in criminal activity and keeping a job for the duration of a probationary period - I think 2 years would be a good number. Perhaps requiring military service would be a good idea. We can screen out drug smugglers. That sort of thing.

But we can't do any of that with people who are crossing illegally. And mass migrations are a lot like floods -- the people are going to get through one way or another. You can choose to try and fail to stop the flood in it's path or take the whole flood and carefully redirect and channel it to do as little damage as possible.

What I'm suggesting is that we need to rethink the numbers we allow in in addition to securing our ports and border. Only doing one and not the other is never going to work and will only lead to greater and greater disaster, mark my words. And yes I mean both: Just upping things to 10 million or some other number of legal immigrants incoming per year only makes sense AFTER you secure the border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Close the southern border. Water keeps many other illegals OUT. Enfore our laws. Arizona 1070 the law thru the USA. End birthright.

Most illegals will leave fast. Real fast. And the rest can be can be snagged by polite profiling.

A few illegals will always slip thru but will be quiet.
What we've learned from history with the Great Wall of China down to the present day: A massive wall with guard towers does not keep out the people you're trying to keep out. It slows them down, sure. It makes them have to get more creative. But it doesn't stop them. The two most devastating invasions of China were the Mongols and the Manchus. Both happened in spite of having the most impressive fortress-wall ever built standing in their way. Every other wall since then has failed to be a solution in and of itself. You have to do more than just throwing up a wall and moving in the troops to guard it. You have to accept that people are going to get through anyways. Maybe they go around. Maybe they make deals with corrupt border guards. All manner of possible ways it can work. Instead of refusing to accept the inevitable, accept it and make the most of things.

You have a double-edged problem too. You've got about 12 million people that are already here illegally. You'll have to go to a lot of trouble tracking them all down and try as you might, you'll fail to find and deport most of them. And then you have a constant influx of new illegals. Every step you take against those that are already here will work for awhile, but they'll adapt and become more clever at beating the system you put in place. And every step you take down that road is a step towards making the United States into a police state instead of the land of the free. I really don't want to see the USA become that.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:33 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 30,400,683 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
I'm unable to look at this as an American who understands borders and laws. I really can only see it as a human being. Its easy to say they should stay in Mexico when your in the US. Just think about it as a person:

- You need money to take care of yourself and your family. You're living conditions are terrible.
- You don't have a years worth of time. (Time to go through the process)
- You don't have thousands of dollars. (Amount of money needed to go through the process)
- You're in a country where the Drug Cartel run rampant with ridiculous amounts of power.
- A country near by can bring much needed opportunity.

I bet nearly everyone in this thread would immigrate illegally, under those circumstances. I know damn sure I would. Under those circumstances, theirs absolutely nothing immoral or wrong with it...
- Get a job. Remember, they're scarce here too and we don't want you taking them).

- If you're not dead yet you have time.

- And for lack of funds we should allow you to bleed our social, medical and educational systems dry?

- Take back your government. We've survuived a revolutionary war and a civil war. Your turn!

Nothing wrong with illegal activity? Guess you think all other crimes are OK as well and not wrong if you can so cavalierly dismiss these.

It's people like you who won't object when you're living in what has become a third world country too. But of course, you'll just immigrate illegally (your words) and ruin someone else's country so no matter. Perhaps you shouldn't wait. Do it now while you still have time.

Thank you!

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 06-04-2011 at 05:44 PM..
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