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Old 05-24-2011, 01:01 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
If you are trying to spin it into saying that I believe that there should be more workers from Mexico brought over let me stop it right there and say no...

Now, again, without illegal aliens (so substract ~11,000,000 from the population), AND under healthy economic conditions, I would think the number of workers using H2 are too low, the current system were illegal immigration is somewhat overlooked is hurting all the workers, illegal, legal and American. I mean the US still maintained a respectable unemployment number during past years.
Well what you "think" and what is the truth could be two different things. There is no reason to believe that our legal immigration quotas are too low under any circumstances and that we need these additional 11 million (your figures, not mine) in order to fill our needs for workers in this country. So you still gave me no basis for your assertions. If we actually needed these people to fill jobs our government would have increased our legal quotas years ago.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Well what you "think" and what is the truth could be two different things. There is no reason to believe that our legal immigration quotas are too low under any circumstances and that we need these additional 11 million (your figures, not mine) in order to fill our needs for workers in this country. So you still gave me no basis for your assertions. If we actually needed these people to fill jobs our government would have increased our legal quotas years ago.
Sure what I think might be wrong, but what you "think" is not necessarily the truth either. I'm basing my idea on the fact that under healthy economic conditions Americans are finding employment, the unemployment fluctuated between 4-6% for many years which is considered healthy. Now remove the illegals from the picture (~11 million)... A removal of all the illegal workers does in fact leave a gap in which there are not sufficient American workers to cover...

What are you basing your ideas on? Do you claim that there is absolutely no need in the US for foreign workforce? Look at some history books.

Of course the government has not allowed a higher number, under current conditions it makes absolutely no sense. And also, in this case, you are attacking a utopic idea of what I think would have been the best scenario...
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:43 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
Sure what I think might be wrong, but what you "think" is not necessarily the truth either. I'm basing my idea on the fact that under healthy economic conditions Americans are finding employment, the unemployment fluctuated between 4-6% for many years which is considered healthy. Now remove the illegals from the picture (~11 million)... A removal of all the illegal workers does in fact leave a gap in which there are not sufficient American workers to cover...

What are you basing your ideas on? Do you claim that there is absolutely no need in the US for foreign workforce? Look at some history books.

Of course the government has not allowed a higher number, under current conditions it makes absolutely no sense. And also, in this case, you are attacking a utopic idea of what I think would have been the best scenario...
You would first have to determine with a 4-6% unemployment rate how that would equate into the numbers of Americans that would be unemployed in order to assume there would be a gap. You would also have to determine if those Americans were of the entry level, semi- skilled and skilled in order to determine how many of those jobs would go unfilled without illegal aliens.

I am basing my assertions on the fact that our government already bases our legal immigration quotas on several factors and one would be job availability. It isn't just recently that our government determined what those numbers should be.

Look at history? We are not in the building process of this nation anymore. We needed immigrants in the past because we were still in the building stage. Looking at history again, never before have we had at minimum 12 million illegal aliens here and at tops quite possibly 30 million. We managed to build this country with hardly any illegal aliens but millions of legal immigrants and Americans. Today is no different except for greed on the part of the employers for cheap, illegal labor.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You would first have to determine with a 4-6% unemployment rate how that would equate into the numbers of Americans that would be unemployed in order to assume there would be a gap. You would also have to determine if those Americans were of the entry level, semi- skilled and skilled in order to determine how many of those jobs would go unfilled without illegal aliens.

I am basing my assertions on the fact that our government already bases our legal immigration quotas on several factors and one would be job availability. It isn't just recently that our government determined what those numbers should be.

Look at history? We are not in the building process of this nation anymore. We needed immigrants in the past because we were still in the building stage. Looking at history again, never before have we had at minimum 12 million illegal aliens here and at tops quite possibly 30 million. We managed to build this country with hardly any illegal aliens but millions of legal immigrants and Americans. Today is no different except for greed on the part of the employers for cheap, illegal labor.
I clearly remember you making the statement that US workers could fill the jobs left by illegal aliens, in a massive deportation scenario, but for some reason now you seem to disagree. However, I agree that the scenario is oversimplified, and that was precisely my point during the massive deportation argument

I do agree with what I marked in red, the government decides how many workers are needed and employer greed is affecting working conditions for the low class. I'm just saying that I think the number would increase in a scenario with no illegal immigration, I don't think the asseveration is absurd... Or you tell me, in a scenario with no illegal immigration and a healthy economy, in your opinion, do you think a larger than todays numbers foreign workforce would be required or not, and why...

I meant history of Mexican workforce in the US, just in the past century, as I feel you claim there is no need for foreign workforce.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
I clearly remember you making the statement that US workers could fill the jobs left by illegal aliens, in a massive deportation scenario, but for some reason now you seem to disagree. However, I agree that the scenario is oversimplified, and that was precisely my point during the massive deportation argument

I do agree with what I marked in red, the government decides how many workers are needed and employer greed is affecting working conditions for the low class. I'm just saying that I think the number would increase in a scenario with no illegal immigration, I don't think the asseveration is absurd... Or you tell me, in a scenario with no illegal immigration and a healthy economy, in your opinion, do you think a larger than todays numbers foreign workforce would be required or not, and why...

I meant history of Mexican workforce in the US, just in the past century, as I feel you claim there is no need for foreign workforce.
No, I still stand by my claim that these jobs would be filled by Americans. There is no conflict in my statements. Where did I say there is no need for any foreign workforce?

I've already told you that this country was built by mostly legal immigrants and citizens and why should today be any different? I also stated that our government has already set our quotas for legal immigration long ago based on job availability so those are the two reasons I feel we don't need illegal aliens to fill jobs. I don't how much clearer I can make it for you.
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Old 05-24-2011, 04:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, I still stand by my claim that these jobs would be filled by Americans. There is no conflict in my statements. Where did I say there is no need for any foreign workforce?

I've already told you that this country was built by mostly legal immigrants and citizens and why should today be any different? I also stated that our government has already set our quotas for legal immigration long ago based on job availability so those are the two reasons I feel we don't need illegal aliens to fill jobs. I don't how much clearer I can make it for you.
Based on job availability given the fact that illegal immigration exists, what portion of the job market do you think the illegals were filling during a healthy economy?
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:04 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
Based on job availability given the fact that illegal immigration exists, what portion of the job market do you think the illegals were filling during a healthy economy?
I have no idea nor do I care. Even during a healthy economy not all Americans had jobs. They could have had the ones that the illegal aliens were holding. I am through with you trying to justify adding millions of illegal aliens to our society to fill some kind of so-called workforce gap. It doesn't exist.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:27 PM
 
254 posts, read 520,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I have no idea nor do I care. Even during a healthy economy not all Americans had jobs. They could have had the ones that the illegal aliens were holding. I am through with you trying to justify adding millions of illegal aliens to our society to fill some kind of so-called workforce gap. It doesn't exist.
Ok, this argument simply made no sense... I never justified adding illegal aliens, that was your conclusion from what I said, at all points I was actually discussing legal temporary workers... and read about how a 4-6% unemployment is considered healthier than a 0% unemployment in an economics book.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:22 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,293,306 times
I'd like to remind everyone the topic of the thread is "Mexican Police find 513 US bound migrants in 2 tractor trailers ". Also, this is a forum not a chat room - this means you should at least try discussing the topic. And no, setting "traps" for other members, asking for their personal views on immigration only to spin it in some way is not the topic.
Yac.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:34 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
Ok, this argument simply made no sense... I never justified adding illegal aliens, that was your conclusion from what I said, at all points I was actually discussing legal temporary workers... and read about how a 4-6% unemployment is considered healthier than a 0% unemployment in an economics book.
4-6% unemployment is what Mexico has - yet the illegals claim their country doesn't have a healthy economy.

But yes, some unemployment is probably good, in a normal situation, labor and wages are about supply and demand. If more workers are needed in some field, businesses will up the wages and/or benefits to attract workers.

The balance is intentionally being disrupted by making unlimited cheap workers available.

However illegal immigration isn't about unemployment rates because there were higher rates of immigration in 2010, and our unemployment rates are about double those in Mexico. These semi-trailers filled and headed to the USA show how little illegal immigration is influenced by the availability of jobs.
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