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Old 05-29-2011, 03:00 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
Reputation: 2661

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sorry, but YOU introduced Hiibel in this discussion. But, you’re right. That case is not related to illegal immigration.

I don’t recall anyone condoning illegal search and seizure. At issue, is whether police should have the right to question the legal status of suspected illegal aliens, or if it is a violation of their Constitutional rights.

According to our immigration laws, all foreign nationals are required to carry documentation at ALL times. If they are required to carry proof of legal status, naturally, they should be expected to produce said documents when requested. Or, are you suggesting the USCIS mandate is unconstitutional?


USCIS - Renew a Green Card
Of course I introduced Hiibel. It is the defining case from the USSC on the issue being discussed. The problem you appear to have with Hiibel is that it gives an answer you do not like.

Again read Hiibel. Even with an actual allegation of a crime the police can demand only your name. Otherwise they need a warrant.

A proper authority has a right to ask to see citizenship documents. A local cop does not qualify. Where is this requirement that they produce it on demand by anyone? A requirement does not lead to an automatic right for anyone to check it. Note that government regulations require that an immigration agent have a reasonable suspicion before asking.

 
Old 05-29-2011, 03:04 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
So it appears that you are advocating that all an illegal has to do to cheat the system is to not carry any ID and claim to be a citizen. How very PC of you.

If a legal resident, foreign or natural born, cannot show or confirm proof of identity they tend to be held until confirmation can be ascertained. Why do you say that illegals should not conform to the same system?
Not legally. You are required to identify yourself. That is it. There is no requirement to supply ID. And virtually no natural born citizen carries proof of citizenship.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,636 posts, read 4,945,754 times
Reputation: 2736
quiz 'em...and if need be...deport 'em
 
Old 05-29-2011, 03:33 PM
 
11,536 posts, read 8,461,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I'm continually amazed by those calling themselves "American", but willing to throw away key tenets of the Constitution in a brief moment...
The Constitution was written 200 years ago, before illegal immigration.

What good is the Constitution if the USA is dominated by illegal immigrants. I say it's time to consider suspending it. Not every nation has the Constitution by the way.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 04:11 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,975,174 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Not legally. You are required to identify yourself. That is it. There is no requirement to supply ID. And virtually no natural born citizen carries proof of citizenship.
You did note that the conversation is about illegals, right?

If you cannot prove your identity, you will likely be detained a longer time than if you can prove it. Illegals cannot provide ID at all. Having been found to be illegal, they should be deported.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 04:14 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,975,174 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I am stating the law as it exists, whatever you read into it is on you. Based on what is commonly carried by a U.S. citizen, there is often no way to prove their citizenship from their ID. Proving identity is different from proving citizenship.
You are reading the law as your want it to be interpreted. Again. Besides, we are talking about illegal not being able to show a legal document fo being here. A legal person can come up with papers that will be accepted. Illegals cannot. Is that so hard for you to understand? Or do you just (as you always seem to do) for anything of an illegal?

By the way, nice attempt at not answering a direct question, as usual.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 05:02 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
You did note that the conversation is about illegals, right?

If you cannot prove your identity, you will likely be detained a longer time than if you can prove it. Illegals cannot provide ID at all. Having been found to be illegal, they should be deported.
The law that applies in all such cases is not about illegals. And that is the problem.

You seem to be having trouble grasping one of the basic and important tenets of US law. The state does not have a right to interogate you because it wants to. It must have a rational cause for doing so.

To detain you even for a minute is a Terry stop. That requires an articuable reason for doing so. The cop must have a view that a crime may have been committed. And no a brown skin and spanish speaking do not make it.

You do not have to prove your identity nor your citizenship. And practically virtually nothing normally carried by a citizen would do that.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
"Suspected illegal aliens" can also be U.S. citizens and Legal Permanent Residents. At least your reference (it is not a "USCIS mandate") showed that the Resident Card must be carried when 18 years or older. U.S citizens, whether or not they are naturalized, do not have to carry proof of their citizenship within the boundaries of the United States.

Within this thread there has already been a comment that the searches should be focused on Hispanics. That won't fly on Constitutional grounds. And good luck getting it enforced as a nation-wide program that checks everyone.
A foreign national MUST carry proof of legal status, at all times, period. Citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship, and no one even remotely implied they are. However, if erroneously suspected of being an illegal alien, it should be very easy for a citizen to prove legal status. In fact, I don’t know of any citizen who, if necessary, would be unable. It certainly would not be a problem for me. How about you?

Regardless of the comments on this thread, no one suggested an illegal search and seizure. As for the focus of ICE or other law enforcement agencies, why shouldn’t they direct their attention to the primary illegal alien demographic? After all, the majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic, and, in particular, Mexican. Or, would their time be better served focusing on Asians or Africans just to satisfy the PC crowd? If a bank robber is a 6 foot tall male, would it make any sense for police to question a 5 foot woman?

When I suggest a nationwide status check for everyone, then, you can wish me luck.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Of course I introduced Hiibel. It is the defining case from the USSC on the issue being discussed. The problem you appear to have with Hiibel is that it gives an answer you do not like.

Again read Hiibel. Even with an actual allegation of a crime the police can demand only your name. Otherwise they need a warrant.

A proper authority has a right to ask to see citizenship documents. A local cop does not qualify. Where is this requirement that they produce it on demand by anyone? A requirement does not lead to an automatic right for anyone to check it. Note that government regulations require that an immigration agent have a reasonable suspicion before asking.
Then, why did you comment that Hiibel is NOT related to illegal immigration? In any case, we have a right to determine who is in this country illegally. It is so sad that some consider protecting the “rights” of foreign interlopers more important than protecting the lives of citizens, and the sovereignty of our nation.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 05:35 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
A foreign national MUST carry proof of legal status, at all times, period. Citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship, and no one even remotely implied they are. However, if erroneously suspected of being an illegal alien, it should be very easy for a citizen to prove legal status. In fact, I don’t know of any citizen who, if necessary, would be unable. It certainly would not be a problem for me. How about you?

Regardless of the comments on this thread, no one suggested an illegal search and seizure. As for the focus of ICE or other law enforcement agencies, why shouldn’t they direct their attention to the primary illegal alien demographic? After all, the majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic, and, in particular, Mexican. Or, would their time be better served focusing on Asians or Africans just to satisfy the PC crowd? If a bank robber is a 6 foot tall male, would it make any sense for police to question a 5 foot woman?

When I suggest a nationwide status check for everyone, then, you can wish me luck.
Amazing how the pro-advocates twist everything to fit their victim mentality for Hispanics, isn't it?
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