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Old 05-29-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,945 posts, read 7,391,151 times
Reputation: 3602

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[quote=olecapt;19362068]
Quote:
The law that applies in all such cases is not about illegals. And that is the problem.
And that is exactly why such a change in the law is being discussed. To change the law.

Quote:
You seem to be having trouble grasping one of the basic and important tenets of US law. The state does not have a right to interogate you because it wants to. It must have a rational cause for doing so.
And you seem to have trouble grasping the fact that a "rational" cause could be anything from loitering to actions showing one does not belong in certain situations or is acting suspiciously. In those instances, the "state" does have the right and obligation to interrogate individuals.


Quote:
To detain you even for a minute is a Terry stop. That requires an articuable reason for doing so. The cop must have a view that a crime may have been committed. And no a brown skin and spanish speaking do not make it.
See above.


Quote:
You do not have to prove your identity nor your citizenship. And practically virtually nothing normally carried by a citizen would do that.
When questioned, you have to provide the information asked for or likely be held until status is confirmed. The proposed change in the law would insure that. Along with acting to capture the criminals (illegals) who entered this country in direct violation of existing laws.

 
Old 05-29-2011, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 14,974,655 times
Reputation: 3019
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Amazing how the pro-advocates twist everything to fit their victim mentality for Hispanics, isn't it?
Indeed it is.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 30,878,370 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Then, why did you comment that Hiibel is NOT related to illegal immigration? In any case, we have a right to determine who is in this country illegally. It is so sad that some consider protecting the “rights” of foreign interlopers more important than protecting the lives of citizens, and the sovereignty of our nation.
We have every right to determine who is in the country legally. And to throw out those who are not. Do you not understand such simple facts of the law?

In doing so we must however follow our own laws. Do you not agree?

And our law sets limitations on the interaction between the state and the individual.

we could of course ignore those legalities thereupon becoming illegal. Would that not match us up with those we are trying to force into compliance? You feel that law breaking in your cause is better than there law breaking in their cause?

Explain how that works please?
 
Old 05-29-2011, 08:33 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 30,878,370 times
Reputation: 2661
[quote=Arjay51;19362437]
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post

And that is exactly why such a change in the law is being discussed. To change the law.
Changing the Constitution is a back breaking task. And this issue has short legs. Get back to us when you are close...though I suspect most of us will have shed our mortal coils before you are close. But persevere...out of such efforts comes new understanding...of what is or is not possible.


Quote:
When questioned, you have to provide the information asked for or likely be held until status is confirmed. The proposed change in the law would insure that. Along with acting to capture the criminals (illegals) who entered this country in direct violation of existing laws.
Read Terry. Read Hiilby. Try and understand. It is not really difficult if you try. There are clear and well defined rules...and they must be followed...\

Otherwise you would be an illegal...just like those guys...can't have that can we.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 3,707,769 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
A foreign national MUST carry proof of legal status, at all times, period. Citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship, and no one even remotely implied they are. However, if erroneously suspected of being an illegal alien, it should be very easy for a citizen to prove legal status. In fact, I don’t know of any citizen who, if necessary, would be unable. It certainly would not be a problem for me. How about you?...
I have three items that show my U.S. citizenship. Two are normally locked away, unless I need them for the occasion: A state-printed birth certificate and a U.S. passport. The only one I commonly carry is a Voter's ID card for my state.

It has no photo, and is used more to describe my voting district...

I've also never been asked for it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Regardless of the comments on this thread, no one suggested an illegal search and seizure. As for the focus of ICE or other law enforcement agencies, why shouldn’t they direct their attention to the primary illegal alien demographic? After all, the majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic, and, in particular, Mexican. Or, would their time be better served focusing on Asians or Africans just to satisfy the PC crowd? If a bank robber is a 6 foot tall male, would it make any sense for police to question a 5 foot woman?...
The concept of Equal Protection Under the Law is that any citizen has an assumption of the same rights as any other citizen. A law cannot discriminate against someone or put a greater burden on them strictly because they belong to a certain ethnicity. In reality of your scenario, the police also know nothing about a would-be accomplice of that bank robber, and would be prudent to check the vehicle trunk of that 5-foot woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
...When I suggest a nationwide status check for everyone, then, you can wish me luck.
Why are you unwilling to subject yourself to the searches you are proposing? Is there anything that excludes an illegal alien from looking like you do? If you have nothing hide, why not?
 
Old 05-29-2011, 08:54 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 10,413,098 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I have three items that show my U.S. citizenship. Two are normally locked away, unless I need them for the occasion: A state-printed birth certificate and a U.S. passport. The only one I commonly carry is a Voter's ID card for my state.

It has no photo, and is used more to describe my voting district...

I've also never been asked for it...



The concept of Equal Protection Under the Law is that any citizen has an assumption of the same rights as any other citizen. A law cannot discriminate against someone or put a greater burden on them strictly because they belong to a certain ethnicity. In reality of your scenario, the police also know nothing about a would-be accomplice of that bank robber, and would be prudent to check the vehicle trunk of that 5-foot woman.



Why are you unwilling to subject yourself to the searches you are proposing? Is there anything that excludes an illegal alien from looking like you do? If you have nothing hide, why not?
That's the million dollar question for Hispanics who are advocates for illegal aliens "if you have nothing to hide, why not"? I think we know the answer to that. It is just smoke and mirrors by screaming racial profiling to protect their illegal relatives, friends and fellow illegal Hispanics from the law.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 09:55 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,945 posts, read 7,391,151 times
Reputation: 3602
[quote=olecapt;19363677][quote=Arjay51;19362437]

Quote:
Changing the Constitution is a back breaking task. And this issue has short legs. Get back to us when you are close...though I suspect most of us will have shed our mortal coils before you are close. But persevere...out of such efforts comes new understanding...of what is or is not possible.
Not possible for those that don't try. BTW, most of the laws on the book are not in the Constitution. They were drawn up well after that document was written. For that matter, aliens of any sort are not mentioned in the Constitution, so try singing another tune. You are certainly off key about this stance of yours.

Quote:
Read Terry. Read Hiilby. Try and understand. It is not really difficult if you try. There are clear and well defined rules...and they must be followed...\
Your precious rules are changed all the time by judges and politicians, without consulting the Constitution. This document makes no mention of air travel, automobiles or the environment. Let alone national health care.

This being the case, are all of these unconstitional? According to your statements, you must think that they are. The law is not carved in stone as you seem to think, it is evolving. Time for laws to reflect modern concerns and the modern peoples will. After all, that is what the law is supposed to do.

Quote:
Otherwise you would be an illegal...just like those guys...can't have that can we
And just how do you figure that? I am perfectly willing to prove my citizenship. You apparently are not. Who is the most likely to be detained under these circumstances? Hint: you.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 9,384,359 times
Reputation: 8822
It's a bad bad bad idea. Unless a cop has some probable cause to ask me to ID myself I'll tell him to take a hike. If he insists I will ask him,"am I free to leave"? If he says "NO" then he's in big trouble because legally I'm under arrest and it's "False arrest". Canadian cops know this and the odd one who has fallen into this trap has found his career in the crapper after his force pays out maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in a legal settlement.

You see, my rights are protected from an intrusive state. It's clearly written in my constitution and it's for those rights that we fought wars to protect. I don't want the Gestapo walking my streets asking anyone for "Papers please". I don't care if they are illegals or whatever. The law enforcements job is to investigate and discover probable cause. Then they can apply for a warrant. Here in Canada if they do it in any other way their case gets thrown out anyway, even if they do discover something in their illegal search. If they want to catch bad guys they should be working and not sitting in some doughnut store drinking coffee.
 
Old 05-29-2011, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 3,707,769 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
...Not possible for those that don't try. BTW, most of the laws on the book are not in the Constitution. They were drawn up well after that document was written. For that matter, aliens of any sort are not mentioned in the Constitution, so try singing another tune. You are certainly off key about this stance of yours.

Your precious rules are changed all the time by judges and politicians, without consulting the Constitution. This document makes no mention of air travel, automobiles or the environment. Let alone national health care.

This being the case, are all of these unconstitional? According to your statements, you must think that they are. The law is not carved in stone as you seem to think, it is evolving. Time for laws to reflect modern concerns and the modern peoples will. After all, that is what the law is supposed to do...
The Constitution is the law of the land, a living document. Automatic weapons weren't around when it was written, but are covered under the Second Amendment. If you don't have that realization by now, you aren't listening.

Terry vs. Ohio was a landmark case, and used daily by police in their interaction with the public more than any other determination. To change that, you are changing the fundamentals of the United States. Sometimes I feel I am arguing with the walls.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 32,776,470 times
Reputation: 4859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
Your precious rules are changed all the time by judges and politicians, without consulting the Constitution.
Not true. Legislation being considered goes through constitutional review(s) during the legislative process. Many "bills" are dropped because they do not pass "muster"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
This document makes no mention of air travel, automobiles or the environment. Let alone national health care.
The document does mention however the issue of interstate commerce. And the things you mention are impacted by interstate commerce.

The founders considered that over time the constitution would need to be interpreted to meet current situations.

Clearly you have not studied the original legislative intent of the founders.

You really should.
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