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Old 05-30-2011, 12:48 PM
 
Location: California
555 posts, read 247,042 times
Reputation: 187

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson View Post
When my Canadian husband got his "green card" he was told by the immigration people that he is required to carry it at all times. According to them, anyone can ask for identification at any time.

I guess the only time you don't have to prove your right to be here is if you are illegal. Does anyone else see the stupidity of this?

20yrsinBranson
Yes I do. I see the stupidity, I see it everyday. I live in one of the most illgeal populated areas of America. When I witness first hand the entitlement attitudes of many fo the illegals espicially in the medical arena, it takes all I have to not go off. Then I think about some of the comments made on these threads and that pisses me off even more. To bad we can't have a law stating anyone legal in America can house, clothe, feed etc as many illegals as they want, and not push the burden on everyone elses' wallets. Anyway, nice post 20yrsinBranson!

 
Old 05-30-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 2,575,564 times
Reputation: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This is beyond ridiculous. We are a sovereign nation, with immigration laws. Those who enter this country without authorization, or violate the terms of their visas, are subject to apprehension and removal. How would you suggest we determine their status?

Furthermore, please quote the post in which I stated that I am unwilling to provide proof of citizenship.
that is not the topic...local law enforcement officers are not on the border enforcing immigration laws. Those persons are called Border Patrol agents and are Federal agents.

the question is not whether BP has he right to check incomming person's immigration status...it is whether that should be a function of local police officers.

Last edited by 1751texan; 05-30-2011 at 02:07 PM..
 
Old 05-30-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 21,070,611 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Since you essentially repeated my comments, apparently I do understand.

Of course we must follow the law. Who has stated otherwise? It is utter nonsense to imply that we cannot ascertain the immigration status of foreign nationals without violating the law. Would you prefer that we continue to allow our country to be overrun by untold millions of illegal aliens? Something has to be done. Do you have any suggestions? Or, are you only here to defend the "rights" illegals?
The option of simply enforcing the law was blown by Reagan and the immediate following regimes when they failed to do so. A tight and fully enforced policy in the late 80s and 90s and we would not have the problem.

At this point the problem is not solvable by enforcement. Neither the resource nor the will is present. A substantial number of citizens wish rigid enforcement at any cost. Any equally large or even greater set want the problem solved without rigid enforcement.

The cost of rigid enforcement would be huge at a time when massive expenditures are simply unsaleable. Even the antis basically admit that by such scenarios as creating a voluntary deportation process that would remove the illegals. That premise though is probably mostly fallacious. If deprived of all access to legal employment the illegals don't leave...they simply move to the gray economy and stop paying taxes. Even bad jobs on the off the books side are better than what they can get at home.

I don't have any great concerns about the rights of illegals. They basically have the right to be deported and not much else. I do however care about my rights and the rights of those of us who are legal. As soon as you figure out how to revoke the fourth for illegals only and get that into law I will be very glad to support your position. This whole discussion is just another indication of why the illegal alien problem is so intractable. Our system is simply not compatible with 10 million illegals...and we don't know what to do next.

So I see two choices. Regularize most of the illegals and get the problem down to a size that is manageable or live with the status quo and wait for the Mexican excess population to be absorbed into the US society. The latter will likely add another 5 or 10 million illegals to the pot...but appears to be the course we are on.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 21,070,611 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson View Post
When my Canadian husband got his "green card" he was told by the immigration people that he is required to carry it at all times. According to them, anyone can ask for identification at any time.

I guess the only time you don't have to prove your right to be here is if you are illegal. Does anyone else see the stupidity of this?

20yrsinBranson
Police can ask anyone anything. It is whether you are required to answer that is the question.

Even the unquestioned ability of immigration officers to ask anyone anywhere about their immigration status is predicated upon a reasonable articulable belief that the person is an alien or otherwise engaged in a crime.

Local police can ask a Canadian driving with Canadian plates anything they want. The Canadian is not required to answer. As a practical matter they don't ask...not having any rationale reason for asking.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 10,285,679 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The option of simply enforcing the law was blown by Reagan and the immediate following regimes when they failed to do so. A tight and fully enforced policy in the late 80s and 90s and we would not have the problem.

At this point the problem is not solvable by enforcement. Neither the resource nor the will is present. A substantial number of citizens wish rigid enforcement at any cost. Any equally large or even greater set want the problem solved without rigid enforcement.

The cost of rigid enforcement would be huge at a time when massive expenditures are simply unsaleable. Even the antis basically admit that by such scenarios as creating a voluntary deportation process that would remove the illegals. That premise though is probably mostly fallacious. If deprived of all access to legal employment the illegals don't leave...they simply move to the gray economy and stop paying taxes. Even bad jobs on the off the books side are better than what they can get at home.

I don't have any great concerns about the rights of illegals. They basically have the right to be deported and not much else. I do however care about my rights and the rights of those of us who are legal. As soon as you figure out how to revoke the fourth for illegals only and get that into law I will be very glad to support your position. This whole discussion is just another indication of why the illegal alien problem is so intractable. Our system is simply not compatible with 10 million illegals...and we don't know what to do next.

So I see two choices. Regularize most of the illegals and get the problem down to a size that is manageable or live with the status quo and wait for the Mexican excess population to be absorbed into the US society. The latter will likely add another 5 or 10 million illegals to the pot...but appears to be the course we are on.
Yes, Reagan and all subsequent administrations have failed us miserably by refusing to secure our borders and enforce our laws. On this, we are in total agreement.

Please explain how it is prohibitive to enforce our current immigration laws, but we will somehow have the wherewithal to enforce new laws following another amnesty.

Illegals need more than jobs to survive in this country. Therefore, even if they work off the books for unscrupulous employers, if they are denied ALL services and benefits, with the exception of life-saving emergency medical care, they will have no recourse but self-deportation. Moreover, we have proof of the efficacy of enforcement, as evidenced by the rapid exodus of illegals from EVERY area that even threatens the enforcement of strict anti-illegal laws.

I am not sure why you believe the only way we can enforce our laws or curb illegal immigration is through the revocation of the 4th Amendment. Please elaborate.

How will repeating the same mistake as in 1986 solve our illegal immigration problem? We would create an even greater magnet for illegal immigration if we legalize their status. Common sense dictates that rewarding behavior, be it good or bad, serves to reinforce said behavior. And, please donít tell me you actually believe THIS TIME the government will uphold the law. No amnesty!
 
Old 05-30-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 21,070,611 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, Reagan and all subsequent administrations have failed us miserably by refusing to secure our borders and enforce our laws. On this, we are in total agreement.

Please explain how it is prohibitive to enforce our current immigration laws, but we will somehow have the wherewithal to enforce new laws following another amnesty.
Sure. We can handle deporting 400,000 or so illegals. That is roughly enough to maintain a population of illegals that is below 250,000. If we reduce the illegals to about 250,000 and keep the pressure up we can hold it there. We might even have to increase the enforcement by 50 or 100%. But we could, if we chose, use that resource to actually hold the number of illegals at some low level.

We may not do that of course. But we could. We have no rational way to deal with ten million.

Quote:
Illegals need more than jobs to survive in this country. Therefore, even if they work off the books for unscrupulous employers, if they are denied ALL services and benefits, with the exception of life-saving emergency medical care, they will have no recourse but self-deportation. Moreover, we have proof of the efficacy of enforcement, as evidenced by the rapid exodus of illegals from EVERY area that even threatens the enforcement of strict anti-illegal laws.
That is simply the anti dream. They need little if anything. They don't have to work for the unscruplous...mostly for relatives and friends.

I would tend to agree that enforcement has some minor effect. But then again Las Vegas appears to have dropped a good bit more than Phoenix. Remember we have more illegals and a generally not hostile climate. Not that Las Vegas supports illegals...we mostly ignore the question.

So an even better way to move out the illegals is a lousey economy. That of course has its own costs.

And I would think the illegals respond just as the Las Vegas construction worker. YOu go where there is work and harrassment is low. But at this point that is not going to cause a big exodus to Mexico. Probably more a move to the Dakotas.

Quote:
I am not sure why you believe the only way we can enforce our laws or curb illegal immigration is through the revocation of the 4th Amendment. Please elaborate.

How will repeating the same mistake as in 1986 solve our illegal immigration problem? We would create an even greater magnet for illegal immigration if we legalize their status. Common sense dictates that rewarding behavior, be it good or bad, serves to reinforce said behavior. And, please donít tell me you actually believe THIS TIME the government will uphold the law. No amnesty!
Actually I don't believe the fourth amendent and its enforcement have anything to do with enforcing the illegal immigration laws. I simply point out to those who would do so that it is unconstitutional. I would think the feds could round up a couple of million illegal aliens in a couple of months if they wished. But what would they do with them? There are lots of tales of ICE basically refusing to take illegals from local jurisdictions. Simple enough why. They can fill their pipe line with the criminal alien or repeat offenders and feel little need to remove anyone else.

To a large degree ICE is simply trying to maximize the good done by its expenditures...which are way too small to deport all the available candidates.

The mistake in 1988 was not the amnesty. That made pretty good sense. It was that the follow on to stop any further inmigration did not occur.

You continue to beat your dead horse...and I will continue to point it out. You guys prevent amnesty. The other half of the population prevents deportation. The result is the worst case.

Be proud.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
14,851 posts, read 18,022,853 times
Reputation: 18989
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Police can ask anyone anything. It is whether you are required to answer that is the question.

Even the unquestioned ability of immigration officers to ask anyone anywhere about their immigration status is predicated upon a reasonable articulable belief that the person is an alien or otherwise engaged in a crime.

Local police can ask a Canadian driving with Canadian plates anything they want. The Canadian is not required to answer. As a practical matter they don't ask...not having any rationale reason for asking.
It is unfortunate that most (if not all) of the people who are here illegally from Mexico and other latin-American countries are hispanic and dark skinned. However, considering the problem that exists in this country, I would think that brown skin, a "pronounced" accent, and a last name like Rodriguez, Gonzales, Garcia, Ortiz, etc., should be considered PROBABLY CAUSE.

Works for me.

20yrsinBranson
 
Old 05-30-2011, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 697,341 times
Reputation: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The option of simply enforcing the law was blown by Reagan and the immediate following regimes when they failed to do so. A tight and fully enforced policy in the late 80s and 90s and we would not have the problem.

At this point the problem is not solvable by enforcement. Neither the resource nor the will is present. A substantial number of citizens wish rigid enforcement at any cost. Any equally large or even greater set want the problem solved without rigid enforcement.

The cost of rigid enforcement would be huge at a time when massive expenditures are simply unsaleable. Even the antis basically admit that by such scenarios as creating a voluntary deportation process that would remove the illegals. That premise though is probably mostly fallacious. If deprived of all access to legal employment the illegals don't leave...they simply move to the gray economy and stop paying taxes. Even bad jobs on the off the books side are better than what they can get at home.

I don't have any great concerns about the rights of illegals. They basically have the right to be deported and not much else. I do however care about my rights and the rights of those of us who are legal. As soon as you figure out how to revoke the fourth for illegals only and get that into law I will be very glad to support your position. This whole discussion is just another indication of why the illegal alien problem is so intractable. Our system is simply not compatible with 10 million illegals...and we don't know what to do next.

So I see two choices. Regularize most of the illegals and get the problem down to a size that is manageable or live with the status quo and wait for the Mexican excess population to be absorbed into the US society. The latter will likely add another 5 or 10 million illegals to the pot...but appears to be the course we are on.
Another choice: use 1070 type laws thru the WHOLE USA and take away birthright citizneship, probleme solved.

Watch the illegals go adios real fast.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 697,341 times
Reputation: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Police can ask anyone anything. It is whether you are required to answer that is the question.

Even the unquestioned ability of immigration officers to ask anyone anywhere about their immigration status is predicated upon a reasonable articulable belief that the person is an alien or otherwise engaged in a crime.

Local police can ask a Canadian driving with Canadian plates anything they want. The Canadian is not required to answer. As a practical matter they don't ask...not having any rationale reason for asking.
And get cuffed and stuffed if I wont tell the cop my name? If good enough for me; good enough for illegals.
 
Old 05-30-2011, 03:49 PM
 
167 posts, read 131,364 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Another choice: use 1070 type laws thru the WHOLE USA and take away birthright citizneship, probleme solved.

Watch the illegals go adios real fast.
Taking birthright citizienship away would require an amendment to the constituition but I'll hope something like that passes.
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