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Old 06-02-2011, 07:44 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,745,541 times
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Illegals have full rights in their own countries. Here they should be treated humanely, you do not have a right to rob or murder them, they should be given only true emergency health care before being humanely returned home.

Back home most illegals do have rights. And as for the Mexican illegals, their own government offers some assistance to them to help them get restarted there. For example returning farmers have a program that helps them get some livestock so they can get back into farming in Mexico.

Usually if the illegals don't just come back over, they either stay in the border town because they can quickly get a job in a maquila, or they return to their hometowns where there relatives and friends are. Often they have a wife and kids there happy to see them again.
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:53 AM
 
1,460 posts, read 1,612,004 times
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Other side of the coin:

**In 2008, Mexico softened the punishment for illegal immigrants, from a maximum 10 years in prison to a maximum fine of $461. Most detainees are taken to detention centers and put on buses for home.

Mexican law calls for six to 12 years of prison and up to $46,000 in fines for anyone who shelters or transports illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the law applies only to people who do it for money.

For years, the Mexican government has allowed charity groups to openly operate migrant shelters, where travelers can rest for a few days on their journey north. The government also has a special unit of immigration agents, known as Grupo Beta, who patrol the countryside in orange pickups, helping immigrants who are in trouble.**

source: Activists blast Mexico's immigration law - USATODAY.com

I for one am tired of being raped in taxes paying for this chit. Secure the damn border!!!
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:00 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,156,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
That has always been my stance, what you precieve me to be is your deal.

I dont know what you "mean" by "supports and defends illegal immigrants"; but I understand your confusion. Many times when I defend a person's right to free speech, many think I condone that speech.

Likewise when I show that illegal aliens are afforded rights, privilges and beneifts [ given by the state or federal government] many incorrectly assume I "support and defend" illegal aliens.

Knowing the law no more make me a supporter of illegal aliens than knowing the law makes me a supporter of the KKK.
The thing is that many of us know what the laws are and some aren't as versed in them. But having someone spout the Constitution all day long and what our laws are does nothing to promote debate on the issue itself. It appears that the former tactic is intended to stop the latter. Why not debate as to why you personally think the laws should remain as they are or should be changed? Obviously both sides want our laws to be changed. I never see you going after the pro-illegals spouting existing laws that are in direct conflict with their desires though.
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:26 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,745,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
I find it ironic that many of you so called libertarians are constitutionalists, yet you only nit pick. The constitutions clearly says all people within the US jurisdiction have rights.


They don't have a right to stay here illegally. But yes, we have certain constitutional rights that apply to everyone - a right not to be murdered and all that. They really do not have a right to free education, or free health care or food stamps or all the other things they have been taking.

It would be great if the USA taxpayers had unlimited money and there was unlimited space so that we could take in the entire world and give the whole world a nice comfortable life here but that is impractical.

Americans are suffering. We have very high unemployment and very very high taxes. We simply cannot keep bringing in millions of needy people and putting more Americans out of work. Keep in mind the government with NAFTA and other trade deals has been exporting millions of jobs.

Americans also have rights. We have a right to keep a little of our paychecks for our families. We should have a right to jobs ahead of illegal foreigners.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,511,548 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
They don't have a right to stay here illegally. But yes, we have certain constitutional rights that apply to everyone - a right not to be murdered and all that. They really do not have a right to free education, or free health care or food stamps or all the other things they have been taking.

It would be great if the USA taxpayers had unlimited money and there was unlimited space so that we could take in the entire world and give the whole world a nice comfortable life here but that is impractical.

Americans are suffering. We have very high unemployment and very very high taxes. We simply cannot keep bringing in millions of needy people and putting more Americans out of work. Keep in mind the government with NAFTA and other trade deals has been exporting millions of jobs.

Americans also have rights. We have a right to keep a little of our paychecks for our families. We should have a right to jobs ahead of illegal foreigners.
As I have stated multiple times they have the right to be deported.

Practically however that is unworkable. In the days when it would have worked we did not do it. We allowed the illegals to become embedded in the society. And we now have 4 million children who are citizens to deal with.

they have a right to free schooling. Period. That case has been decided.

The US born children have a right to welfare. Again a decided matter.

They have a right to free emergency medical care. And in some cases it would be more rational to treat them in other ways...so they do not use the very expensive emergency care.

So maintaining the status quo is the outcome. There is no will to expel them...and it probably is a bad idea. There is more than sufficient support to prevent the exenditures that would be required both on humanitarian and on the practical grounds that we can't afford it.

Soon the economy will turn and the inflow will again begin.

The only good news is that we will likely run out of Mexicans in another 10 years or less. Which will mostly end the problem. Though by then there will likely be 20 million or more in the US with 8 or 10 million US kids.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:33 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
As I have stated multiple times they have the right to be deported.

Practically however that is unworkable. In the days when it would have worked we did not do it. We allowed the illegals to become embedded in the society. And we now have 4 million children who are citizens to deal with.
We did no such thing. The American public's viewpoints on this matter were overruled by pandering pols and greedy employers. In the meantime we need to provide no incentives for people to stay here. This includes no welfare, no interpreters and penalties for violating our laws.

Quote:
they have a right to free schooling. Period. That case has been decided.
There is no such thing as free schooling. Those bills are paid for by the American taxpayers. And a supreme court decision can be unmade just as quickly as it is made.

Quote:
The US born children have a right to welfare. Again a decided matter.
Again no they don't. The American public does not want to hand out public funds to the offspring of illegals. The law can and should be changed to reflect the majority's viewpoints.

Quote:
They have a right to free emergency medical care. And in some cases it would be more rational to treat them in other ways...so they do not use the very expensive emergency care.
There is no such thing as free emergency care. You may be entitled to treatment but you are most certainly not entitled to walk out on the bills. No American can get away with that if they don't have insurance.

FYI, the majority of illegals are Mexicans. Mexico has national health insurance. Why the hell should any American be forced to hand over our tax dollars to Mexican nationals? If you are an illegal you can go the heck home and get treatment for free in your own country.

Quote:
So maintaining the status quo is the outcome. There is no will to expel them...and it probably is a bad idea. There is more than sufficient support to prevent the exenditures that would be required both on humanitarian and on the practical grounds that we can't afford it.
Do you really think most Americans want illegals here? There is public will. We've just been overruled by the Hispanic lobby, the pandering Dems and the greedy Reps.

In the meantime we can hardly afford the costs they impose on us. They crowd our schools, rarely pay taxes, use health care they don't pay for and make constant demands on the American public.

Quote:
Soon the economy will turn and the inflow will again begin.

The only good news is that we will likely run out of Mexicans in another 10 years or less. Which will mostly end the problem. Though by then there will likely be 20 million or more in the US with 8 or 10 million US kids.
We don't want them here. They need to go home. Yesterday.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:43 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,511,548 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
We did no such thing. The American public's viewpoints on this matter were overruled by pandering pols and greedy employers. In the meantime we need to provide no incentives for people to stay here. This includes no welfare, no interpreters and penalties for violating our laws.

Quote:
There is no such thing as free schooling. Those bills are paid for by the American taxpayers. And a supreme court decision can be unmade just as quickly as it is made.
It is to the recipient and the parents. Sorry about that.

All it takes to unmake it is a Constitutional amendment.


Quote:
Again no they don't. The American public does not want to hand out public funds to the offspring of illegals. The law can and should be changed to reflect the majority's viewpoints.
Again Constitutional. Another amendment

Quote:
There is no such thing as free emergency care. You may be entitled to treatment but you are most certainly not entitled to walk out on the bills. No American can get away with that if they don't have insurance.
Of course they do. No money you still get the care. Sure you owe for it. But practically it is free. illegal or legal. One advantage of being poor.


Quote:
FYI, the majority of illegals are Mexicans. Mexico has national health insurance. Why the hell should any American be forced to hand over our tax dollars to Mexican nationals? If you are an illegal you can go the heck home and get treatment for free in your own country.
That is an option sometimes used. Sometimes not. It in no way changes the requirement of the hospital to provide emergency treatment. If you make a dialysis patient wait until it is an emergency he or she will have to be admitted and the bill will be 5 or 10 times larger. And some treatments may well not be available in Mexico.

Quote:
Do you really think most Americans want illegals here? There is public will. We've just been overruled by the Hispanic lobby, the pandering Dems and the greedy Reps.

In the meantime we can hardly afford the costs they impose on us. They crowd our schools, rarely pay taxes, use health care they don't pay for and make constant demands on the American public.



We don't want them here. They need to go home. Yesterday.
So change the rules and send them home...if it can be done. But billions and billions of dollars? Now?

Antis often suffer from fantasy...and make it worse by doing so. We are on our way to the worst case....
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:50 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
It is to the recipient and the parents. Sorry about that.
All it takes to unmake it is a Constitutional amendment.
Not true. You have to pay for it via property taxes. You also cannot just send your child to any school in the country. If you don't live in a specific district you cannot send your child there. No court decision has ever granted any child the right to attend American school they wish.

Quote:
Again Constitutional. Another amendment
A wrongly decided opinion that most people oppose.

Quote:
Of course they do. No money you still get the care. Sure you owe for it. But practically it is free. illegal or legal. One advantage of being poor.
Again not true. You get stabilized care. You can't just walk into an emergency room and get long term care for cancer. It is also not free. The American public pays for it. My damn co-pays just went up again.

The only treatment an illegal should be allowed is ER care for serious injury. Anything more and the patient should be sent home.

Quote:
That is an option sometimes used. Sometimes not. It in no way changes the requirement of the hospital to provide emergency treatment. If you make a dialysis patient wait until it is an emergency he or she will have to be admitted and the bill will be 5 or 10 times larger. And some treatments may well not be available in Mexico.
ER treatment only. The foreign dialysis patient is not an American problem nor an American responsibility. If a foreigner wants treatment that is not available in Mexico then let the foreigner lobby his government rather than make demands on the American taxpayer.

I frankly don't give a damn if a Mexican wants medical treatment. He's Carlos Slim's problem not my fiscal responsibility. Said foreign national should be immediately deported as a public charge.

Quote:
So change the rules and send them home...if it can be done. But billions and billions of dollars? Now?
You're the one arguing that we should fund dialysis treatment for Mexicans. A single year of dialysis can cost upwards of 50k for a single patient. You've also done a good job pointing out the costs that illegals impose on us ironically. Why do you think it will more expensive to deport people and enforce our immigration laws? Would it really be more expensive than continuing to provide health care, education, food stamps and all the rest of the welfare structure for ten million low skilled migrants?

Quote:
Antis often suffer from fantasy...and make it worse by doing so. We are on our way to the worst case....
And pro illegal supporters suffer from the fantasy that allowing millions of low skilled migrants with access to the welfare state at the expense of the American middle class should continue. That's not the way to get us out of a recession. All you'll do is encourage even more low skilled immigration. We should send the very opposite message: we don't need you. If caught you will be deported. We will track you down for payment if you show up in an ER because you're too lazy to go back to Mexico and use your own medical care system. We will not educate your kids. We will not provide you with interpreters. If you drive without licenses and insurance we will arrest and deport you.

All those positions are supported by the American public. More importantly they are low cost measures. It is not factual to suggest that reducing the numbers of children will increase costs or that refusing entry to someone eight months pregnant will somehow be impossible.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:57 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,511,548 times
Reputation: 2661
This has reached the pointless stage.

The illegals are here. They are receiving emergency care and free schools and kidney dialysis. That is fact.

You have no way to change it. The country has no will to expel these people.

So it will remain as it is...too bad.

You get the last word so Yac does not shot me.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:23 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,276 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
This has reached the pointless stage.

The illegals are here. They are receiving emergency care and free schools and kidney dialysis. That is fact.

You have no way to change it. The country has no will to expel these people.

So it will remain as it is...too bad.

You get the last word so Yac does not shot me.
The country has the will. Poll after poll has shown this. Unfortunately far too many legislators share your fatalism and indifference on this issue. So illegals get to impose huge costs on Americans. Rational efforts to stop them are deemed fantasy. It's completely ridiculous.
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