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Old 06-02-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,088 posts, read 16,952,304 times
Reputation: 10278

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
Because it's easier to cross the Rio Grande and Sonora desert than 6,000 miles of Pacific Ocean.
Well, they should keep going because that's where the jobs are at.

 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:14 PM
 
Location: TMI
416 posts, read 355,822 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman01 View Post
In point of fact they're half right. We did take the southwest from mexico. Now they want it back...........and they're getting it back and then some.


http://www.raconline.org/newsletter/web/images/spring06_map.jpg (broken link)
Pretty much every country on this planet gained and lost land due to war. Mexico is no exception. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it the Spanish who conquered it? So it belongs to the Europeans then. So would Mexico.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
3,326 posts, read 2,617,265 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I've no doubt you're 100% right -- and that is certainly nothing new in US history. I do think that if you take the approach of controlling the flow rather than stopping it you can help fluency in English as well. Make it in their best interests to learn to speak English fluently. You're holding out the carrot of citizenship and no longer having to worry about being deported at a moment's notice. Learning the language suddenly becomes a really, really good idea. And it also likely becomes a mass-movement. Spanish speaking only communities would undoubtedly help each other out learning English.

I expect that there will be a lot of English as a Second Language communities for a long time to come, especially in border states. But you can at least make things better than they are now.

Throwing up a metaphorical dam with no spillway and expecting that you've now stopped the flow of water completely: That's just idiocy. Won't work.
Allowing your nation to simply be occupied one county at a time is what constitutes idiocy.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:20 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
3,326 posts, read 2,617,265 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallbanger View Post
Pretty much every country on this planet gained and lost land due to war. Mexico is no exception. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it the Spanish who conquered it? So it belongs to the Europeans then. So would Mexico.
The spanish took it from a number of indian tribes/nations. In what we call the american southwest the spanish pretty fought constantly with indigenous tribes. After the mexicans threw the spanish out they then fought constantly with the indigenous tribes before losing it all to the whites who moved into first texas then the other territories. I'll give the mexicans credit. They are doing the very same thing we did to them. I'm guessing the mexicans themselves had appeasers as we do. How ironic.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:20 PM
 
Location: John & Ken-ville
13,692 posts, read 15,130,564 times
Reputation: 9493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman01 View Post
Allowing your nation to simply be occupied one county at a time is what constitutes idiocy.
Our government turning a blind eye while our nation has been for the past 25 years occupied by wave after wave after wave of undocumented, illegal citizens of other nations, people who overstay visas, people who come here with zero documentation, people who take advantage of our system of education for free, our welfare system for free, and our national birthright citizenship rule constitutes complete and total meltdown idiocy.

And it continues today. And nobody is doing anything about it.

Our country is bleeding and there's too much partisan politics about it.

We need to do what's in the best interest of our social welfare (not "welfare benefits" but national sanity welfare) and economic recovery of this nation because we've (the government has) been crazy and blind for the past 25 years to what is really going on in this country as far as illegal immigration stands.

It has to stop.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
3,326 posts, read 2,617,265 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Towner View Post
Do you have proof of this or is this more anti-American crap coming from a leftist?
Many mexicans do have a very good work ethic. It doesn't last much beyond the first generation tho.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:23 PM
 
9,972 posts, read 14,040,736 times
Reputation: 9193
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Because at the time, the USA welcomed all comers. There were no limits on how many people could immigrate to the USA.
Right because the Irish spoke English as their first language. On the other hand, Danes, Germans, Russians, Polish and a whole range of immigrants who did not speak English as their first language were left alone and many of them spent a few generations not speaking English. The difference wasn't language, it was that they came with money. The Irish came flat broke, but virtually all spoke English just fine.

Having said that, I think it's a perfectly reasonable minimum expectation that they be required to learn English in order to become citizens. With the reward of US citizenship dangling before them, I think they will learn English for it. Right now though, the illegals have no reason to bother.
To a degree, but a huge segment of US culture as we know it boils down to us adopting Irish customs. Why else do we care about St Patrick's Day? In my experience, Latin American immigrants (legal or illegal) are one generation away from assimilation. The children of such immigrants speak fluent English and are as American as you please. A lot of that next generation has to relearn Spanish later on because they forget how to speak it.

A former coworker of mine is the classic case story we hear all the time. His parents came into the USA to -- legally in this case -- as a young couple. They were going to work hard, save a ton of money and then go back to Mexico and live like kings. Well, the problem they didn't count on: Their kids never lived anywhere but the USA and they were miserable when they got to Mexico. It didn't take long for his parents to give up and move back the the USA for good. This scenario is commonplace. Their kids only barely speak Spanish. They're as American as you can be.

To be clear, I don't want the USA to turn into an extension of Latin America. I don't speak Spanish. I don't think I should be required to learn Spanish. I don't think we need to compromise on this issue. And I'm not Latino so it's not like I've got any ax to grind here. I'm a mutt-mix of Scandinavian, German and Scottish.

I'm just pointing out the obvious: The current approach is doomed to fail. Another approach is going to need to be figured out. If they want in badly you can't build a wall that is high enough and thick enough to stop them. They'll find a way to get here. Right now we're fighting an impossible fight. Its never going to work.

Yes secure the border, but at the same time open things up for more Hispanics to immigrate legally.

Think of it like a dam. You have control of the flow to some extent but you have to let water through. Sometimes you have to let more water through than normal to keep the water from going over the top of the dam.

This is a rational, well-though out post, and I agree with most of what you're saying. Wherever in the world you have a wealthier country next to a poorer one with a high number of poorer citizens and an excess labor pool, you're going to have a case where people are going to try to migrate. It's inevitable, the best we can do is secure the border and have a more realistic immigration policy.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
3,326 posts, read 2,617,265 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
Our government turning a blind eye while our nation has been for the past 25 years occupied by wave after wave after wave of undocumented, illegal citizens of other nations, people who overstay visas, people who come here with zero documentation, people who take advantage of our system of education for free, our welfare system for free, and our national birthright citizenship rule constitutes complete and total meltdown idiocy.

And it continues today. And nobody is doing anything about it.
That isn't true. The democratic party is pretty much counting on it continuing. Expect some very good legislation coming down the pike similar to the recent legislation and perks offered to gays this last year for hispanics. It'll be a good ol' time down at the dnc this next election cycle.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:25 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,104,934 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Because at the time, the USA welcomed all comers. There were no limits on how many people could immigrate to the USA.
Right because the Irish spoke English as their first language. On the other hand, Danes, Germans, Russians, Polish and a whole range of immigrants who did not speak English as their first language were left alone and many of them spent a few generations not speaking English. The difference wasn't language, it was that they came with money. The Irish came flat broke, but virtually all spoke English just fine.

Having said that, I think it's a perfectly reasonable minimum expectation that they be required to learn English in order to become citizens. With the reward of US citizenship dangling before them, I think they will learn English for it. Right now though, the illegals have no reason to bother.
To a degree, but a huge segment of US culture as we know it boils down to us adopting Irish customs. Why else do we care about St Patrick's Day? In my experience, Latin American immigrants (legal or illegal) are one generation away from assimilation. The children of such immigrants speak fluent English and are as American as you please. A lot of that next generation has to relearn Spanish later on because they forget how to speak it.

A former coworker of mine is the classic case story we hear all the time. His parents came into the USA to -- legally in this case -- as a young couple. They were going to work hard, save a ton of money and then go back to Mexico and live like kings. Well, the problem they didn't count on: Their kids never lived anywhere but the USA and they were miserable when they got to Mexico. It didn't take long for his parents to give up and move back the the USA for good. This scenario is commonplace. Their kids only barely speak Spanish. They're as American as you can be.

To be clear, I don't want the USA to turn into an extension of Latin America. I don't speak Spanish. I don't think I should be required to learn Spanish. I don't think we need to compromise on this issue. And I'm not Latino so it's not like I've got any ax to grind here. I'm a mutt-mix of Scandinavian, German and Scottish.

I'm just pointing out the obvious: The current approach is doomed to fail. Another approach is going to need to be figured out. If they want in badly you can't build a wall that is high enough and thick enough to stop them. They'll find a way to get here. Right now we're fighting an impossible fight. Its never going to work.

Yes secure the border, but at the same time open things up for more Hispanics to immigrate legally.

Think of it like a dam. You have control of the flow to some extent but you have to let water through. Sometimes you have to let more water through than normal to keep the water from going over the top of the dam.
There were limits to European immigrants if you look at our immigration history.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 03:25 PM
 
Location: TMI
416 posts, read 355,822 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman01 View Post
The spanish took it from a number of indian tribes/nations. In what we call the american southwest the spanish pretty fought constantly with indigenous tribes. After the mexicans threw the spanish out they then fought constantly with the indigenous tribes before losing it all to the whites who moved into first texas then the other territories. I'll give the mexicans credit. They are doing the very same thing we did to them. I'm guessing the mexicans themselves had appeasers as we do. How ironic.
Ok, then, at least according to your logic, Mexico should be given back to the ( if there are any remaining) tribes. lol.
There's no credit one could give anybody. It''s history. Has nothing to do with anything that happens in 2011.
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