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Old 06-12-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
No obfuscation. I am sure some illegals don't pay all their taxes. I am sure many tipped workers don't pay all their taxes. I am also aware of some illegals who pay taxes against a TIN.

Both may well be guilty of a crime but it is virtually never dealt with as such. So I think in both cases it is proper to consider at an administrative violation of the tax code that opens one to civil penalties.

I would think off the books to be a substantial problem that we should try very hard to stamp out. Another reason why pushing the illegals off the legal books is dull.
That wasn’t the issue at all. You stated emphatically that “working off the books” is not a crime, without any further explanation. To which I responded that it is in fact a crime unless one reports all wages. Deliberate omission of such a salient factor is tantamount to a lie.

Sorry, but the IRS does not consider tax evasion an “administrative violation.” It is a federal crime, period. I hope you aren’t suggesting we should have more lenient penalties for tax evasion committed by illegal aliens than for citizens. Or, that our tax laws should consider illegal immigration status as a mitigating circumstance.

In other words, we should legalize illegal aliens or risk creating more tax frauds? I think not. We need to rid our country of illegal aliens, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Again any number of things are possible. If the illegal is here 10 years the statute of limitations runs out and all is forgiven. If caught it is almost certain that an adminstrative action will be used to remove the individual. It can be criminal but need not be.
Oh, so all illegal aliens who have lived here for more than 10 years are no longer illegal? Please cite that section of our immigration law.

 
Old 06-12-2011, 04:03 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
The attempt to justify crimes by criminals is truly surreal. The assertion that if we deported criminals crime rates would go up is Orwellian.

Most Americans pay taxes. Most Americans do not default on medical bills because they have no choice. Most Americans drive with both licenses and insurance. Most Americans don't forge documents. Many illegals don't do these things. This makes them criminals. Low skilled laborers who don't speak English simply find it very difficult to survive in America without committing crimes on a daily basis. The same is hardly true of most Americans.

The argument seems to be that if any American commits a crime at any turn and is not deported for it than an illegal should be allowed to commit the exact same crime and also not face deportation for it. So nations across the world should be allowed to dump their tax evaders, pedophiles, murderers, theives, robbers, muggers, rapists and all other non-law abiding trash at our shores without fear we'll send them home.

That's insane reasoning. Foreigners are not entitled to remain here forever. They are certainly not entitled to remain here after they have committed criminal actions.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 04:44 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
The attempt to justify crimes by criminals is truly surreal. The assertion that if we deported criminals crime rates would go up is Orwellian.
Merely math. Often considered offensive to those whose relegious beliefs it defeats.

Quote:
Most Americans pay taxes. Most Americans do not default on medical bills because they have no choice. Most Americans drive with both licenses and insurance. Most Americans don't forge documents. Many illegals don't do these things. This makes them criminals. Low skilled laborers who don't speak English simply find it very difficult to survive in America without committing crimes on a daily basis. The same is hardly true of most Americans.
Ahh sorry the illegals who don't does these things and that makes them criminals? wheeee.

Many illegal don't do these things and that means they are not criminals. And in general illegals are almost never prosecuted and no criminal charges are brought against the. So yes they are illegal but no they are not criminal.

Quote:
The argument seems to be that if any American commits a crime at any turn and is not deported for it than an illegal should be allowed to commit the exact same crime and also not face deportation for it. So nations across the world should be allowed to dump their tax evaders, pedophiles, murderers, theives, robbers, muggers, rapists and all other non-law abiding trash at our shores without fear we'll send them home.
Again we do not criminally prosecute illegal aliens. We simply deport them. And that is the cheapest, quickest and most effective way to deal with them.

I am sorry if it offends you but that is how it is.

Quote:
That's insane reasoning. Foreigners are not entitled to remain here forever. They are certainly not entitled to remain here after they have committed criminal actions.
Never said they were. Illegal aliens are always subject to deportation.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 04:55 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
That wasn’t the issue at all. You stated emphatically that “working off the books” is not a crime, without any further explanation. To which I responded that it is in fact a crime unless one reports all wages. Deliberate omission of such a salient factor is tantamount to a lie.

Sorry, but the IRS does not consider tax evasion an “administrative violation.” It is a federal crime, period. I hope you aren’t suggesting we should have more lenient penalties for tax evasion committed by illegal aliens than for citizens. Or, that our tax laws should consider illegal immigration status as a mitigating circumstance.

In other words, we should legalize illegal aliens or risk creating more tax frauds? I think not. We need to rid our country of illegal aliens, period.
Failing to pay taxes is an entirely different thing than working off the books. There are lots of cases where people fail to pay taxes that don't involve working off the books. I would expect that employing people off the books is often a criminal act. But working off the books is not.

Failure to properly file or pay your taxes is virtually always handled as an administrative matter. And for small sums it is virtually always ignored.

We should legaiize illegal aliens because we have no other practical option.

We should provide all with a SS number so that people don't work off the books. We can use the tax revenue and still deport them if their number comes up.


Quote:
Oh, so all illegal aliens who have lived here for more than 10 years are no longer illegal? Please cite that section of our immigration law.
Where did I say that? They can no longer be prosecuted for the crime of illegal entry. Still perfectly deportable. All crime statutes run out except murder. Illegal presence remains and allows the state to throw you out.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 06:02 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
We should legaiize illegal aliens because we have no other practical option.
Talk about religious beliefs. Worse insane and impractical religious beliefs. Legalize them and all you'll do is get more of them. Almost worse you'll basically give millions of low skilled, non-English speaking, low earning criminals access to American taxpayer funded welfare. They make very little money so they'll hardly pay much in taxes. Worse, under the rules of the EITC, they'll get every dime they pay back in their pockets. At least now they pay some taxes like sales taxes. Legalize them and you'll only put them on welfare.

Why should Americans do that? Why should my taxes go up so some stupid junior high school drop out from Mexico can come here without permission, get free food, a second health care system, free housing and a dozen other bennies? And pay nothing for them?

His problems are not my problems. When they become my problem (as they have now) I have every right to tell him to take his rear end back home.

You make no sense at all. It is far more sensible to enforce our present immigration laws. Better yet (as I have outlined) provide no benefits to illegals so they leave. All health care bills run up by illegals automatically send to Mexico. No Spanish speaking interpreters. Huge fines for employers. Huge fines for driving without a license. Confiscation of all ill gotten earnings from a stolen job. No education for their children.

All you do when you do otherwise is encourage more illegal migration from people we don't need or want. In the middle of a recession that's simply crazy.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 06:16 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Talk about religious beliefs. Worse insane and impractical religious beliefs. Legalize them and all you'll do is get more of them. Almost worse you'll basically give millions of low skilled, non-English speaking, low earning criminals access to American taxpayer funded welfare. They make very little money so they'll hardly pay much in taxes. Worse, under the rules of the EITC, they'll get every dime they pay back in their pockets. At least now they pay some taxes like sales taxes. Legalize them and you'll only put them on welfare.
We have given...not will give. Welfare is simply more folklore. Block them from any welfare until they become citizens. That is what we do to other immigrants.

Quote:
Why should Americans do that? Why should my taxes go up so some stupid junior high school drop out from Mexico can come here without permission, get free food, a second health care system, free housing and a dozen other bennies? And pay nothing for them?
They get nothing of the sort. Their American born children do. And that is a fait accompli...

Too bad you guys did not get to Reagan and Bush...we could have avoided all this.

Quote:
His problems are not my problems. When they become my problem (as they have now) I have every right to tell him to take his rear end back home.
Tell the illegal whatever you like. Makes no difference you and we lack the means and the will to send him home. Tough but that is how it is.


Quote:
You make no sense at all. It is far more sensible to enforce our present immigration laws. Better yet (as I have outlined) provide no benefits to illegals so they leave. All health care bills run up by illegals automatically send to Mexico. No Spanish speaking interpreters. Huge fines for employers. Huge fines for driving without a license. Confiscation of all ill gotten earnings from a stolen job. No education for their children.

All you do when you do otherwise is encourage more illegal migration from people we don't need or want. In the middle of a recession that's simply crazy.
More of your folklore. We are going to put up 100 billion or so to get rid of the illegals? Maybe you can get Boehner to sponsor that bill...

Face it. The anti is the keeper of the status quo. That basically guarantees a new set of illegals once things pick up. The only good news is we should run out of Mexicans in another 10 years. Maybe 18 million altogether. And you can look at it with pride...We did that...
 
Old 06-12-2011, 07:41 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
We have given...not will give. Welfare is simply more folklore. Block them from any welfare until they become citizens. That is what we do to other immigrants.



They get nothing of the sort. Their American born children do. And that is a fait accompli...
Of course they get welfare. Do you think the anchor baby goes to store on his own and pays cash for his food and his food only?

Quote:
Too bad you guys did not get to Reagan and Bush...we could have avoided all this.
We've enforced borders in the past. Why can't we do that now?


Quote:
Tell the illegal whatever you like. Makes no difference you and we lack the means and the will to send him home. Tough but that is how it is.
YOU lack the will. WE don't.

Quote:
More of your folklore. We are going to put up 100 billion or so to get rid of the illegals? Maybe you can get Boehner to sponsor that bill...
As opposed to what we spend right now on illegals?

They cost us money in a hundred different ways. As has been repeated ad nauseum on this forum if you stop giving them benefits they'll leave. Enforce the laws and they'll leave.

Quote:
Face it. The anti is the keeper of the status quo. That basically guarantees a new set of illegals once things pick up. The only good news is we should run out of Mexicans in another 10 years. Maybe 18 million altogether. And you can look at it with pride...We did that...
What keeps the status quo is your endless recitation that we should endlessly grant illegals permission to stay here. Worse, benefits when they do so. All that will do is encourage yet more low skilled largely hispanic immigration we don't want or need.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
We have given...not will give. Welfare is simply more folklore. Block them from any welfare until they become citizens. That is what we do to other immigrants.



They get nothing of the sort. Their American born children do. And that is a fait accompli...

Too bad you guys did not get to Reagan and Bush...we could have avoided all this.

Tell the illegal whatever you like. Makes no difference you and we lack the means and the will to send him home. Tough but that is how it is.




More of your folklore. We are going to put up 100 billion or so to get rid of the illegals? Maybe you can get Boehner to sponsor that bill...

Face it. The anti is the keeper of the status quo. That basically guarantees a new set of illegals once things pick up. The only good news is we should run out of Mexicans in another 10 years. Maybe 18 million altogether. And you can look at it with pride...We did that...
You keep repeating the same thing over and over. However, you have yet to mention how your “fixit” plan will work. And, why do you not include yourself among the group of citizens who should have done something while Reagan and Bush were in office? Why is it always “you guys” should have done this, and “you guys” should have done that? Unless you were a child until recently, why didn’t YOU do something to stop this nonsense?

Again, what is your brilliant plan? And, please don’t mention rewarding illegals with amnesty. Been there, done that.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 08:35 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You keep repeating the same thing over and over. However, you have yet to mention how your “fixit” plan will work. And, why do you not include yourself among the group of citizens who should have done something while Reagan and Bush were in office? Why is it always “you guys” should have done this, and “you guys” should have done that? Unless you were a child until recently, why didn’t YOU do something to stop this nonsense?

Again, what is your brilliant plan? And, please don’t mention rewarding illegals with amnesty. Been there, done that.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 08:54 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You keep repeating the same thing over and over. However, you have yet to mention how your “fixit” plan will work. And, why do you not include yourself among the group of citizens who should have done something while Reagan and Bush were in office? Why is it always “you guys” should have done this, and “you guys” should have done that? Unless you were a child until recently, why didn’t YOU do something to stop this nonsense?

Again, what is your brilliant plan? And, please don’t mention rewarding illegals with amnesty. Been there, done that.
We simply must reduce the illegal population to something less than half a miiion and then rigidly enforce the immigration laws. We declare success when we show we can maintain the illegal population under a half million and sustain it there. Preferably coming down slowly.

To do that we offer regularization to the present illegal population. Call in amnesty if you like. I leave the detail to the bureaucrats. It must be nice enough that virtually all subscribe...but no nicer. Ten year program? Pay penalities? Back taxes? Whatever works. Make it difficult but not impossible. These generally are relatively poor people so penalties and costs need to be modest..but high enough that the citizenship will be appreciated when given.

Expand ICE to whatever it takes to keep the number of illegals from rising. Otherwise we will repeat the 80s debacle.

Perhaps draconian outcome on those who are regularized. Any involvement with new illegals and out they all go.

Set it up right and we could make crossing the border extremely difficult for at least a period of years.
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