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Old 06-23-2011, 10:05 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Why are you so fixated on the fact that immigrants coming from a third world country has low education? Millions upon millions of people that have immigrated to this country have been poor and uneducated during all types of economies and have flourished and, as a result, our country has flourished.
That is a gross simplication of American immigration history.

Let me educate you and your little tag team of tax raises and illegal defenders.

During the 1880 - 1920 wave of immigration it is true that most legal immigrants did not have a high school diploma. However, most Americans did not. In fact, according to a study most immigrants during that time period were actually better educated than the general population. They were more likely to have an important skill.

The same is not true today. Today at the very minimum you are expected to have at least a high school diploma to get even very paying jobs. Do you dare deny this? Do you dare deny the fact that our own high school drop outs are far more likely to have serious problems in the workforce? Why on earth should Americans welcome people who don't even have such qualifications? What will a foreign national who has very little education and does not speak English add to our society?

Other than the change to make misguided illegal advocates feel better about themselves?

How are high school drop outs who don't speak English going to succeed in our economy when our own cannot? And why should we penalize them merely to satisfy Mexico's upper class and our own greedy employers?

What should we do when they, as most do, don't succeed economically?

It is not MY fault that someone is poor and uneducated. That describes literally over a billion people. It is most certainly not MY problem to fix by bringing them here.

That problem has ten thousand better fixes that importing them here and hurting Americans fiscally.

 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:08 PM
pvn
 
103 posts, read 42,885 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Then stop advocating for illegals. Low educated high school drop outs who don't speak English only serve to drive down wages for own underclass and punish the American middle class with higher taxes, increased class sizes and greater health care premium costs.

At least be honest in your aims.
How do they drive down wages? It seems they do so by offering a service people value. This isn't a handout or redistribution. It's them earning it.

As for "higher taxes", well, you'll have to explain. The people you're complaining about driving wages down are (by definition) working. They're paying taxes. They pay more and get less in return than a US citizen doing the same work would.

Basically this argument applies to all poor people, since they all pretty much get more out of the system than they put in.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:12 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Hey I'm not the one equating all illegals to Mexicans through the law of rounding and then complaining about having to learn Spanish for jobs that require knowing Spanish and then blaming it on the illegals despite the millions of LEGAL Spanish speaking people currently residing here. I mean you try and say you're fine with all the people here legally but it's obvious the Spanish speaking legals aren't included.
Pointing out that more than half of all illegals are Mexicans is simply stating facts. I am sorry you find facts offensive.

FYI, I am not personally fine with anyone who lives here legally and does not speak English. I think we should deny them citizenship until they demonstrate fluency. I think people who think otherwise do so merely to feel good about themselves and not to make this country a better place by making sure that we can all communicate in a common language.

It's obvious that you don't care if Americans get hurt economically because of illegal migrants. Just as long as you can pat yourself on the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Lol, no it's not. More than 50% of the population is female. People are female!

More than 50% of immigrants are here legally. Immigrants are legal! Why does this forum exist?!?
So facts on illegal immigration are not allowed.

Okay.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:17 PM
pvn
 
103 posts, read 42,885 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
During the 1880 - 1920 wave of immigration it is true that most legal immigrants did not have a high school diploma. However, most Americans did not. In fact, according to a study most immigrants during that time period were actually better educated than the general population. They were more likely to have an important skill.

The same is not true today. Today at the very minimum you are expected to have at least a high school diploma to get even very paying jobs. Do you dare deny this? Do you dare deny the fact that our own high school drop outs are far more likely to have serious problems in the workforce? Why on earth should Americans welcome people who don't even have such qualifications? What will a foreign national who has very little education and does not speak English add to our society?

Other than the change to make misguided illegal advocates feel better about themselves?

How are high school drop outs who don't speak English going to succeed in our economy when our own cannot? And why should we penalize them merely to satisfy Mexico's upper class and our own greedy employers?
so wait, this whole thing, all your opposition to these people is out of ... concern for them?
 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:17 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvn View Post
How do they drive down wages? It seems they do so by offering a service people value. This isn't a handout or redistribution. It's them earning it.

As for "higher taxes", well, you'll have to explain. The people you're complaining about driving wages down are (by definition) working. They're paying taxes. They pay more and get less in return than a US citizen doing the same work would.

Basically this argument applies to all poor people, since they all pretty much get more out of the system than they put in.
Import more low skilled labor and you'll get lower wages. Basic economics. Supply drives down wages.

You can't just offer services and be done with it. If I said that I wanted to put my child in the workforce would you be okay with it? If I said that I wanted to work without getting paid overtime or for less than minimum wage would you be okay with it?

Why are our hard won labor gains to be thrown away merely to suit the needs of Mexican border crossers?

The people in question drive up taxes because they use services and do not pay for them. As high school drop outs they earn very little. This means they don't pay for the children they put in our schools, the emergency rooms they use because they don't get health care or the fact that they are not paying federal taxes.

As a result Americans have to pay more in taxes to compensate. I am sympathetic to our own poor people. I am not in favor of importing more poor people to compete with them for jobs.

Please educate yourself on this topic before daring to comment on it.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:20 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvn View Post
so wait, this whole thing, all your opposition to these people is out of ... concern for them?
My concern is for everyone involved. Illegals would be better off in their own countries where they can fight for their rights. Our low skilled workers would be better off with higher wages. Our middle class would also benefit.

I realize that's not as easy as who opposes you is a would be Nazi on this issue but life is like that.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 10:40 PM
 
46 posts, read 19,027 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
My concern is for everyone involved. Illegals would be better off in their own countries where they can fight for their rights. Our low skilled workers would be better off with higher wages. Our middle class would also benefit.

I realize that's not as easy as who opposes you is a would be Nazi on this issue but life is like that.
So all those illegal aliens haven't figured out that they would be better off in their own country, but you did? I'm sure they will find your concern touching. You would think that after moving away from home, crossing a desert/ocean, facing thirst, hydration, threats of violence, all to get a job at some point in their minds they thought, " You know is this worth it?", or maybe not.

Last edited by Bing Blang Blaow; 06-23-2011 at 10:52 PM..
 
Old 06-23-2011, 11:34 PM
pvn
 
103 posts, read 42,885 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Import more low skilled labor and you'll get lower wages. Basic economics. Supply drives down wages.
OK, go on...

Quote:
You can't just offer services and be done with it.
Because you say so?

Quote:
If I said that I wanted to put my child in the workforce would you be okay with it? If I said that I wanted to work without getting paid overtime or for less than minimum wage would you be okay with it?
Your child hypothetical is too vague and has no bearing on this discussion anyway; it's just a cheap appeal to emotion.

As for your other issues, if you want to work without getting overtime or for less than minimum wage why wouldn't I be OK with it? You want me to violently interfere so you don't work at all?

Quote:
Why are our hard won labor gains to be thrown away merely to suit the needs of Mexican border crossers?
I'm not asking you to do anything to suit them.

Quote:
The people in question drive up taxes because they use services and do not pay for them. As high school drop outs they earn very little. This means they don't pay for the children they put in our schools, the emergency rooms they use because they don't get health care or the fact that they are not paying federal taxes.
As has already been pointed out (and backed with citations) they DO pay federal taxes. And they pay MORE and get LESS than "legal" people making the same amount of money.

Quote:
As a result Americans have to pay more in taxes to compensate. I am sympathetic to our own poor people. I am not in favor of importing more poor people to compete with them for jobs.
So some people are better than others, in your view. "our" poor people shouldn't have to compete? Their poor people should be kept poor, in their place, so "our poor" can have it easy?

Quote:
Please educate yourself on this topic before daring to comment on it.
lol
 
Old 06-23-2011, 11:42 PM
pvn
 
103 posts, read 42,885 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
My concern is for everyone involved. Illegals would be better off in their own countries where they can fight for their rights. Our low skilled workers would be better off with higher wages. Our middle class would also benefit.

I realize that's not as easy as who opposes you is a would be Nazi on this issue but life is like that.
Everyone loses when labor is constrained. The standard of living for everyone increases when trade is free. I can just assert this like you did, but instead I can point you to a mountain of research from actual PhD economists (who are, I assure you, educated on this topic) that show this.

Here's a Harvard economics professor:

Quote:
Few propositions command as much consensus among professional economists as that open world trade increases economic growth and raises living standards.
source: Greg Mankiw's Blog: Outsourcing Redux

He's probably uneducated on this matter.

Here's another PhD.


YouTube - ‪"Trade is Made of Win," Part 1: Wealth Creation‬‏

Trade creates wealth.

I can produce an endless stream of economists, all saying this same thing. Normally I'm not a big fan of the appeal to authority but since you're specifically arguing that educating myself on this matter would change my opinion, the fact that virtually all economics professors agree with me seems pretty germane.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
...Why are our hard won labor gains to be thrown away merely to suit the needs of Mexican border crossers?...
If you mean "illegal aliens", say "illegal aliens"...

If you want to stick with your definition, it needs to go on another sub-forum...
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