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Lol, yes retreat back to your moral highground. Perhaps if your rafts weren't lashed together with disingenuous anecdotes, broad generalizations based off suspect statistics, and irrational reasoning you would be able survive out in the rough waters of open debate for longer periods of time before you had to come scrambling back to the rapidly shrinking moral atoll with the tibirón nipping at your heels.
yanno, one of my girlfriends came to America, she learned the language, put herself through college, and is now an accomplished career women, however, she did all this legally and thru the system, and there was a company she had worked for, who messed up her paper work, and at that time, she was so afraid she would be sent back to her country and have to marry someone her father chose for her...I'm just saying, yanno....
anyway, long story short, to this day, she is appauled at the people who come to this country and abuse our systems, and I am to, but you gotta agree, if, this country makes it so easy for them to do, do you blame them? What if we were in the same situation?
I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong, but at the end of the day, if you don't enforce laws, there are always those who will abuse the system...and we don't enforce our laws...we scratch backs instead....
There are two sides to every story, and while these illegals are wrong, you can't blame them for wanting a better life...yes, they are wrong for what they're doing...for taking huge advantage of our systems, for going for medical treatments and not paying, for working and not having to do they're share and pay taxes, and for not serving in the military...but if your mother/father, doesn't make you hang your coat up, your not going to do it, are you?
yanno, one of my girlfriends came to America, she learned the language, put herself through college, and is now an accomplished career women, however, she did all this legally and thru the system, and there was a company she had worked for, who messed up her paper work, and at that time, she was so afraid she would be sent back to her country and have to marry someone her father chose for her...I'm just saying, yanno....
anyway, long story short, to this day, she is appauled at the people who come to this country and abuse our systems, and I am to, but you gotta agree, if, this country makes it so easy for them to do, do you blame them? What if we were in the same situation?
I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong, but at the end of the day, if you don't enforce laws, there are always those who will abuse the system...and we don't enforce our laws...we scratch backs instead....
There are two sides to every story, and while these illegals are wrong, you can't blame them for wanting a better life...yes, they are wrong for what they're doing...for taking huge advantage of our systems, for going for medical treatments and not paying, for working and not having to do they're share and pay taxes, and for not serving in the military...but if your mother/father, doesn't make you hang your coat up, your not going to do it, are you?
I wouldn't stereotype human beings in such a manner. Many if not most people are honest and would not break a law intentionally. Others don't give a damn as the illegals in this case. You are giving human beings in general a bad name by stereotyping them all as self-centered people who would do anything illegally for their own personal gain if the opportunity arose and I am offended by that.
So all those illegal aliens haven't figured out that they would be better off in their own country, but you did? I'm sure they will find your concern touching. You would think that after moving away from home, crossing a desert/ocean, facing thirst, hydration, threats of violence, all to get a job at some point in their minds they thought, " You know is this worth it?", or maybe not.
Maybe if they expended all that effort into changing their own country they wouldn't need to come here and demand ridiculous changes in mine. Then again I suppose it's easier to cross the border eight months pregnant and demand we pay your medical bills then it is to stay in Mexico and pay a few bucks to have your baby delivered by Mexico's national health insurance.
I find your belief that as long as you put lots of effort into breaking the law than doing so is okay utterly revolting.
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Originally Posted by pvn
OK, go on...
Because you say so?
Your child hypothetical is too vague and has no bearing on this discussion anyway; it's just a cheap appeal to emotion.
That about sums up the whole illegal defense. There is no justification for importing millions of low skilled migrants otherwise.
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As for your other issues, if you want to work without getting overtime or for less than minimum wage why wouldn't I be OK with it? You want me to violently interfere so you don't work at all?
Because people are entitled to workplace protections. You can't just do what you want without recourse to a legal framework. Oh wait. That's another basis for the illegal defense . . . the pretense that laws ae essentially and fundamentally meaningless. I think I'll take a pass.
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I'm not asking you to do anything to suit them.
Yes you are. You are asking many things. You want to throw out our labor labors, ignore our immigration laws and put our own low skilled natives at a disadvantage in the labor force. You just haven't taken five seconds to actually think about the implications of your proposals.
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As has already been pointed out (and backed with citations) they DO pay federal taxes. And they pay MORE and get LESS than "legal" people making the same amount of money.
Most do not. They have very low skills and earn very little. If they pay more than some natives it is because they have voluntarily broken multiple American laws. I am not upset that criminals suffer financial consequences for their criminal behavior.
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So some people are better than others, in your view. "our" poor people shouldn't have to compete? Their poor people should be kept poor, in their place, so "our poor" can have it easy?
There are literally two billion poor people in the world. Should every single one of them be allowed to move here? Why? Who's going to support them? Why should a handful of Americans be charged with the responsibility of insuring that all the world's poor people have economic opportunity? How is that fair?
Carlos Slim is the world's richest man and a Mexican national. Does he bear any responsibility for the poor in his country? Or does that only apply to Americans?
I wouldn't stereotype human beings in such a manner. Many if not most people are honest and would not break a law intentionally. Others don't give a damn as the illegals in this case. You are giving human beings in general a bad name by stereotyping them all as self-centered people who would do anything illegally for their own personal gain if the opportunity arose and I am offended by that.
I don't see how I'm sterotyping human beings...illegals are just that, illegal...and I said, I have no problem with anyone coming to this country if they go thru the system legally and honestly, which many do...however, there are hoards that don't and that is down right wrong...illegal means illegal...and you read my post the way you wanted to read it, it wasn't intended to sound that way...I'm sorry you were not able to grasp my intent...
Maybe if they expended all that effort into changing their own country they wouldn't need to come here and demand ridiculous changes in mine. Then again I suppose it's easier to cross the border eight months pregnant and demand we pay your medical bills then it is to stay in Mexico and pay a few bucks to have your baby delivered by Mexico's national health insurance.
I find your belief that as long as you put lots of effort into breaking the law than doing so is okay utterly revolting.
That about sums up the whole illegal defense. There is no justification for importing millions of low skilled migrants otherwise.
Because people are entitled to workplace protections. You can't just do what you want without recourse to a legal framework. Oh wait. That's another basis for the illegal defense . . . the pretense that laws ae essentially and fundamentally meaningless. I think I'll take a pass.
Yes you are. You are asking many things. You want to throw out our labor labors, ignore our immigration laws and put our own low skilled natives at a disadvantage in the labor force. You just haven't taken five seconds to actually think about the implications of your proposals.
Most do not. They have very low skills and earn very little. If they pay more than some natives it is because they have voluntarily broken multiple American laws. I am not upset that criminals suffer financial consequences for their criminal behavior.
There are literally two billion poor people in the world. Should every single one of them be allowed to move here? Why? Who's going to support them? Why should a handful of Americans be charged with the responsibility of insuring that all the world's poor people have economic opportunity? How is that fair?
Carlos Slim is the world's richest man and a Mexican national. Does he bear any responsibility for the poor in his country? Or does that only apply to Americans?
Noting that the two accounts that you are responding to are no longer with us...
If you mean "illegal aliens", say "illegal aliens"...
If you want to stick with your definition, it needs to go on another sub-forum...
According to some people I should really say undocumented worker. Or better yet Sainted Person Who is Doing Very Hard Work That No Lazy Racist American Will Do.
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Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals
Are you really that dense that you can't see that I wasn't addressing your facts and instead was making fun of the idea that it's normal to round up and refer to every member of a group as the majority subset of said group?
Most illegal advocates are Hispanic. The president of Mexico has come to America not to apologize for his countrymen's decision to invade this country or his failure to provide them with a better country but to castigate Americans for not welcoming non-English speaking high school drop outs in the middle of a recession.
The only thing dense is the belief that Americans must welcome the world's underclass and do so no matter what the cost to our own society.
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Originally Posted by huddledmasses
But stereotyping is ok if it's over 50%
So stereotype is the new phrase for pointing out the facts about illegal immigration?
The truth is that illegals are far more likely to be Mexican. If Mexico's president does not want his countrymen to be seen as illegals then he should stop lobbying in favor of their alleged right to break American immigration laws.
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Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals
Lol, yes retreat back to your moral highground. Perhaps if your rafts weren't lashed together with disingenuous anecdotes, broad generalizations based off suspect statistics, and irrational reasoning you would be able survive out in the rough waters of open debate for longer periods of time before you had to come scrambling back to the rapidly shrinking moral atoll with the tibirón nipping at your heels.
There's one idiot metaphor that ought to sink with the weight of its own pretense.
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why Americans should change our immigration laws to suit the needs of Hispanic high school drop outs. Because that does indeed describe most illegals. They are Latin American and they have very little education by American standards.
We don't need them.
Why should a single American have to pay more in taxes so that a foreign national can come here? How much more should we pay so that the world's poor can come here and get their economic needs met?
Please tell.
FYI, my stats are from reputable sources including the New York Times and a widely respected group that tends to learn pro-illegal. Labeling them suspect merely because they point out the lunacy of your position does not make them so.
I don't see how I'm sterotyping human beings...illegals are just that, illegal...and I said, I have no problem with anyone coming to this country if they go thru the system legally and honestly, which many do...however, there are hoards that don't and that is down right wrong...illegal means illegal...and you read my post the way you wanted to read it, it wasn't intended to sound that way...I'm sorry you were not able to grasp my intent...
You said that everyone would do what the illegals do if they were in their position and had the opportunity. If that isn't stereotyping the whole human race then I don't know what is. You asked "do you blame them"? Well, yes I do! Would I do the same? Absolutely not and neither would many or most people.
The first part of your post was fine. It was what you said at the end as in my above paragraph where you did the stereotyping.
Why should ANYONE care about YOUR opinion rather than the person who was actually giving the scholarship?
If you want to give YOUR money to kids who just happened to be born on the right side of an imaginary line, knock yourself out.
Who's forcing them to care? But I note this wonderful benefactors aren't actually named by our resident crook. I wonder if these folks check Selective Service registration top see if their male recipients have registered.
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