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Old 06-22-2011, 05:55 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Is this a bot spitting out the same replies in every thread?
One can't repeat the truth enough. Just like the pro-illegals can't seem to stop repeating their same old lies on this issue.

 
Old 06-22-2011, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
They aren't immigrants, they are illegal aliens and no they are not allowed by law to compete for American jobs. It the number of jobs aren't stagnant then why do we have millions of Americans out of work? Why are you on the side of lawbreaking employers and illegal aliens rather than American workers? Are you an American?
lol "they aren't immigrants?" Yes, they are. I mean, you can call them whatever you'd like, they emigrated here.

Yes, I'm an American. I don't find a moral difference between an American suffering and a non-American suffering, however. And I frequently "side with lawbreakers" in the sense that I believe many things are currently illegal that should not be, or where enforcement should be light or absent. This is why I brought up jaywalking in another thread.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
Jobs aren't finite.
The number of jobs are in any given economy, good or bad. There are a certain number of jobs, and the number of available applicants for those jobs will ultimately determine the wage level.

As an example, when unemployment in my market was around 2.4% in 2006-2007, employers were practically begging for workers. Convenience stores were paying 25K in salary for counter help with full benefits. McDonalds was paying $11/hour for hamburger flippers. With unemployment now around 9.3%, it's back to minimum wage. Classic example of the law of supply and demand.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
The number of jobs are in any given economy, good or bad. There are a certain number of jobs, and the number of available applicants for those jobs will ultimately determine the wage level.

As an example, when unemployment in my market was around 2.4% in 2006-2007, employers were practically begging for workers. Convenience stores were paying 25K in salary for counter help with full benefits. McDonalds was paying $11/hour for hamburger flippers. With unemployment now around 9.3%, it's back to minimum wage.
What he is saying is that there is not simply a specific number of jobs that does not fluctuate. When jobs are taken, growth can occur and more positions become available.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
The number of jobs are in any given economy, good or bad. There are a certain number of jobs, and the number of available applicants for those jobs will ultimately determine the wage level.

As an example, when unemployment in my market was around 2.4% in 2006-2007, employers were practically begging for workers. Convenience stores were paying 25K in salary for counter help with full benefits. McDonalds was paying $11/hour for hamburger flippers. With unemployment now around 9.3%, it's back to minimum wage. Classic example of the law of supply and demand.
This is trivially false. There are always jobs, but depending on the state of the business, they may not be able/willing to pay what workers would accept to have the job done.

I mean, let's say I have a guy working for me for $20/hr. I'm not thinking about hiring anyone, but then two guys, citizens, are willing to do the job for $10/hr each. Do I (a) keep the first guy, (b) hire only one of the second guys, or (c) magically create a job out of thin air and hire both of the second guys?
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
What he is saying is that there is not simply a specific number of jobs that does not fluctuate. When jobs are taken, growth can occur and more positions become available.
I understand his point, misguided as it is. But the problem with that assumption is that when an illegal takes the job for a few dollars less than an American citizen, then less money enters the economy. And that doesn't even begin to take into account how much money gets wired out of the country, subsequently stimulating another country's economy. If you've ever been at a grocery store on a Friday night and watch illegals wiring money to family via Western Union, you'd realize what I mean.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
...it is not.

Whatever huge social costs you believe there may be would not be present if they were legalized. Of course, the numbers used around here are inaccurate enough that you might perceive it differently.

But, as always, your argument relies regardless on not caring about the welfare of the immigrant at all. If there are two identical potential employees offering the same wage and willing to do the same work, it does not matter whom the employer chooses. I assume you can see that.
Those working for low wages with large families will never be able to cover their huge social costs. We have enough of our own poor that we have to support socially. We don't need to add millions of illegals to the mix also. How would legalizing them free up these jobs for American citizens?

The subject isn't "immigrants". It is illegal alien lawbreakers. Since they don't care about the welfare of our citizens by stealing our jobs and benefits and disrepecting our immigration laws why the hell should we care about them? Why doesn't their own country care about them?

Yes, by law it does matter who the employer hires if one is a legal immigrant or citizen and the other one is an illegal aliens. I would like to assume you could see that but apparently not.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:03 PM
 
192 posts, read 91,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
I understand his point, misguided as it is. But the problem with that assumption is that when an illegal takes the job for a few dollars less than an American citizen, then less money enters the economy. And that doesn't even begin to take into account how much money gets wired out of the country, subsequently stimulating another country's economy. If you've ever been at a grocery store on a Friday night and watch illegals wiring money to family via Western Union, you'd realize what I mean.
Except, in a free market, the businesses who employ illegal immigrants are competing against each other, so the savings do get passed to the consumer. Thus, everyone can afford to buy more stuff. This is elementary stuff, here.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:04 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Witnessing the debate over illegals in this country, I've noticed a pattern among the most ardent pro-illegal supporters. They tend to be lawyers, artists, journalists, ministers, academics, etc. etc. etc.

What's wrong with that? You might ask.

Easy. None of these truly vocal people hold jobs that would be threatened by an illegal immigrant, unlike a factory worker, a construction worker, a day laborer, a housekeeper in a hotel or any number of other blue-collar jobs. Just as importantly, none of those people will face the competitive downward pressure that an illegal will place on wages in blue-collar jobs. After all, if you have a large pool of workers out there chasing a finite number of jobs, then wages get pushed down. It's the law of supply and demand. It's Economics 101.

So essentially, these people indulge in the luxury of saying pious nonsense and feeling self-righteous, knowing that it won't effect them at all.

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.
I'm a fifth generation farmer and I'm sure I fit into the category you consider "pro-illegal."

Feel free to discuss that amongst yourselves.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Those working for low wages with large families will never be able to cover their huge social costs. We have enough of our own poor that we have to support socially. We don't need to add millions of illegals to the mix also. How would legalizing them free up these jobs for American citizens?

The subject isn't "immigrants". It is illegal alien lawbreakers. Since they don't care about the welfare of our citizens by stealing our jobs and benefits and disrepecting our immigration laws why the hell should we care about them? Why doesn't their own country care about them?

Yes, by law it does matter who the employer hires if one is a legal immigrant or citizen and the other one is an illegal aliens. I would like to assume you could see that but apparently not.
I understand that it's an important part of your side's messaging to refuse to call them immigrants. They are obviously immigrants, though. And it's another part of your messaging strategy to constantly bring up that it's "illegal." Which, as I've said, also applies to jaywalking. Something being illegal is not an argument for keeping it illegal.

I mean, why should we care about the jobs of jaywalkers? They are disrespecting the nation's laws, correct?
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