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Old 06-22-2011, 07:05 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,305,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
This is trivially false. There are always jobs, but depending on the state of the business, they may not be able/willing to pay what workers would accept to have the job done.

I mean, let's say I have a guy working for me for $20/hr. I'm not thinking about hiring anyone, but then two guys, citizens, are willing to do the job for $10/hr each. Do I (a) keep the first guy, (b) hire only one of the second guys, or (c) magically create a job out of thin air and hire both of the second guys?
Trivially false? What the heck does that mean?

I think a more apt comparison is to look at a construction site. The builder (Yes, they still exist) bids out a project for a certain dollar amount. No matter what, he is slated to build the project for an agreed-upon sum.

So then he hires his labor. The more cheaply he can hire the labor, the more profit he makes. So when it comes to hiring a laborer, he can choose Ernie, a guy who typically makes $13-$15 an hour with a family to support, or he can choose Ernesto at $9 an hour who has a family to support down in Chiapas and won't raise a stink about workplace safety violations.

That's the far more likely scenario than the one you outlined.

 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:06 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,165,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol "they aren't immigrants?" Yes, they are. I mean, you can call them whatever you'd like, they emigrated here.

Yes, I'm an American. I don't find a moral difference between an American suffering and a non-American suffering, however. And I frequently "side with lawbreakers" in the sense that I believe many things are currently illegal that should not be, or where enforcement should be light or absent. This is why I brought up jaywalking in another thread.
You cannot use the word plain old "immigrant" because there are two catagories of immigrants. Legal and illegal ones. At least have the decency to dicipher between the two by putting the correct adjective in front of the word "immigrant".

We have enough to cover our own "suffering". It is up to the countries of the illegals to take care of their own citizen's "suffering". If you think it is our responsibility to take care of the whole world's suffering by taking them all into our country and thereby creating suffering for our own then you aren't thinking clearly.

Laws should be obeyed until or if they are changed. Illegals and their advocates don't think so.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:06 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,305,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
Except, in a free market, the businesses who employ illegal immigrants are competing against each other, so the savings do get passed to the consumer. Thus, everyone can afford to buy more stuff. This is elementary stuff, here.
And the expenses get passed along to the taxpayer. Pretty elementary stuff here.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:08 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,305,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
I'm a fifth generation farmer and I'm sure I fit into the category you consider "pro-illegal."

Feel free to discuss that amongst yourselves.
See, in the case of agriculture, I would support a guest worker program. The work is seasonal after all. But anybody who supports the notion that it's perfectly okay for an illegal to walk into the Hormel plant in Nebraska and supplant a meatpacker who has worked there for 20 years has rocks in his head.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:08 PM
 
192 posts, read 91,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Trivially false? What the heck does that mean?

I think a more apt comparison is to look at a construction site. The builder (Yes, they still exist) bids out a project for a certain dollar amount. No matter what, he is slated to build the project for an agreed-upon sum.

So then he hires his labor. The more cheaply he can hire the labor, the more profit he makes. So when it comes to hiring a laborer, he can choose Ernie, a guy who typically makes $13-$15 an hour with a family to support, or he can choose Ernesto at $9 an hour who has a family to support down in Chiapas and won't raise a stink about workplace safety violations.

That's the far more likely scenario than the one you outlined.
And, if the builder knows that Ernesto and Jose, with whom he's worked before and who will happily work with him on every job he does, the builder can make lower bids on everything he builds.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:08 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,786 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Trivially false? What the heck does that mean?

I think a more apt comparison is to look at a construction site. The builder (Yes, they still exist) bids out a project for a certain dollar amount. No matter what, he is slated to build the project for an agreed-upon sum.

So then he hires his labor. The more cheaply he can hire the labor, the more profit he makes. So when it comes to hiring a laborer, he can choose Ernie, a guy who typically makes $13-$15 an hour with a family to support, or he can choose Ernesto at $9 an hour who has a family to support down in Chiapas and won't raise a stink about workplace safety violations.

That's the far more likely scenario than the one you outlined.
Um, yeah, except you stopped at the point where your arguments stops making any sense.

At this point, the employer has more money. He might even be able to hire another employee. Or he can lower the costs of his bids overall, lowering the costs of the project to the person or company who he is contracting with. Those lowered costs benefit people.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,239,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Witnessing the debate over illegals in this country, I've noticed a pattern among the most ardent pro-illegal supporters. They tend to be lawyers, artists, journalists, ministers, academics, etc. etc. etc.

What's wrong with that? You might ask.

Easy. None of these truly vocal people hold jobs that would be threatened by an illegal immigrant, unlike a factory worker, a construction worker, a day laborer, a housekeeper in a hotel or any number of other blue-collar jobs. Just as importantly, none of those people will face the competitive downward pressure that an illegal will place on wages in blue-collar jobs. After all, if you have a large pool of workers out there chasing a finite number of jobs, then wages get pushed down. It's the law of supply and demand. It's Economics 101.

So essentially, these people indulge in the luxury of saying pious nonsense and feeling self-righteous, knowing that it won't effect them at all.

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.

Youre right.

Tho what people dont get is with telecomutting, whats stoppin an employer from hiring some dude in India to do white collar work for half the money. The American white collars would be screamin then.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:11 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,786 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Youre right.

Tho what people dont get is with telecomutting, whats stoppin an employer from hiring some dude in India to do white collar work for half the money. The American white collars would be screamin then.
Absolutely. I mean, could you imagine those white collar idiots squirming over that? It's almost as if the "source" of their job would then be "out" of the country. They would never know what hit them.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:11 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,246,481 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol "they aren't immigrants?" Yes, they are. I mean, you can call them whatever you'd like, they emigrated here.

Yes, I'm an American. I don't find a moral difference between an American suffering and a non-American suffering, however. And I frequently "side with lawbreakers" in the sense that I believe many things are currently illegal that should not be, or where enforcement should be light or absent. This is why I brought up jaywalking in another thread.
Of course they aren't immigrants. Calling these criminals immigrants is an insult to the millions of immigrants who are waiting in line to come in, those who actually respect our country and follow our laws.

Would you call drug dealers "pharmacists"? After all, they're just unlicensed pharmacists.

Would you call a bank robbery an "unauthorized withdrawal"?
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:13 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,786 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Of course they aren't immigrants. Calling these criminals immigrants is an insult to the millions of immigrants who are waiting in line to come in, those who actually respect our country and follow our laws.

Would you call drug dealers "pharmacists"? After all, they're just unlicensed pharmacists.

Would you call a bank robbery an "unauthorized withdrawal"?
Would you call your shower water "water"? I mean, that's an insult to all the lakes and oceans, for some reason.

They are immigrating here. You don't like how they are doing it, but that doesn't matter when we're talking about the literal meaning of the word.
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