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Old 06-22-2011, 06:15 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,240,795 times
Reputation: 45820

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Um, yeah, except you stopped at the point where your arguments stops making any sense.

At this point, the employer has more money. He might even be able to hire another employee. Or he can lower the costs of his bids overall, lowering the costs of the project to the person or company who he is contracting with. Those lowered costs benefit people.
No, it doesn't work that way. You have it backwards. Builders already know how many man hours it takes to complete a project, and typically bid on a conservative, 'most case' scenario in terms of what it will take. They certainly don't pass their labor savings on to the customer. The number on the estimate will likely be the number on the invoice (Barring change orders). So the money saved on labor simply goes into the builder's pocket.

The other thing to realize is that construction firms do not have standing staffs of people. There is a core staff, but the laborers get hired on an ad hoc basis. And they certainly wouldn't be hiring dry wall guys on a permanent basis. They'd be hiring managers and bookkeepers instead.

So the citizen day laborer who played by the rules gets hosed while the illegal gets a job. Not a very fair arrangement in the least.

 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:16 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,240,795 times
Reputation: 45820
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Youre right.

Tho what people dont get is with telecomutting, whats stoppin an employer from hiring some dude in India to do white collar work for half the money. The American white collars would be screamin then.
True enough. Although that trend is showing trends of reversing itself.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:16 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,243,243 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Would you call your shower water "water"? I mean, that's an insult to all the lakes and oceans, for some reason.

They are immigrating here. You don't like how they are doing it, but that doesn't matter when we're talking about the literal meaning of the word.
I would call my shower water "water" but I wouldn't call urine "water".

By the way, salt water and fresh water are not interchangeable.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:23 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,126 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
No, it doesn't work that way. You have it backwards. Builders already know how many man hours it takes to complete a project, and typically bid on a conservative, 'most case' scenario in terms of what it will take. They certainly don't pass their labor savings on to the customer. The number on the estimate will likely be the number on the invoice (Barring change orders). So the money saved on labor simply goes into the builder's pocket.

The other thing to realize is that construction firms do not have standing staffs of people. There is a core staff, but the laborers get hired on an ad hoc basis. And they certainly wouldn't be hiring dry wall guys on a permanent basis. They'd be hiring managers and bookkeepers instead.

So the citizen day laborer who played by the rules gets hosed while the illegal gets a job. Not a very fair arrangement in the least.
Wow, this is ridiculous.

For the record, my dad works in construction (DON'T WORRY, NO ILLEGALS HIRED, NO AMERICAN FAMILIES HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THIS BUSINESS).

The fact that they know how many man hours it takes in advance is irrelevant to your point if they already know that the labor is going to be cheaper. These lower costs can translate into one of two things. One is more money in the contractor's pocket. He will spend this money or invest it into his business (omg good for the economy!). The second is a lower bid, which he can use to become more competitive. THAT IS SAVINGS BEING PASSED ONTO THE CONSUMER.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:24 PM
 
106 posts, read 215,994 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Witnessing the debate over illegals in this country, I've noticed a pattern among the most ardent pro-illegal supporters. They tend to be lawyers, artists, journalists, ministers, academics, etc. etc. etc.

What's wrong with that? You might ask.

Easy. None of these truly vocal people hold jobs that would be threatened by an illegal immigrant, unlike a factory worker, a construction worker, a day laborer, a housekeeper in a hotel or any number of other blue-collar jobs. Just as importantly, none of those people will face the competitive downward pressure that an illegal will place on wages in blue-collar jobs. After all, if you have a large pool of workers out there chasing a finite number of jobs, then wages get pushed down. It's the law of supply and demand. It's Economics 101.

So essentially, these people indulge in the luxury of saying pious nonsense and feeling self-righteous, knowing that it won't effect them at all.

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.
AMEN!! One of the best posts I've ever read.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 06:25 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,126 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
I would call my shower water "water" but I wouldn't call urine "water".

By the way, salt water and fresh water are not interchangeable.
I like the not so subtle analogizing of illegal immigrants to urine. Classy.

But yeah, illegal immigrants are immigrants. Just like illegal gambling operations are gambling operations.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:08 PM
 
82 posts, read 73,635 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I like the not so subtle analogizing of illegal immigrants to urine. Classy.

But yeah, illegal immigrants are immigrants. Just like illegal gambling operations are gambling operations.
Actually, the correct term is 'undocumented workers'. Gotta keep up with the times.

To tell you the truth, the economic arguments, or a subset of them, seem like an honest try to me. If it sounds like a good trade-off to be in favor of bringing in 10-20 million people, with all the social and environmental cost (along with the downward push in blue collar labor rates) so that you can get a cheap Tyson chicken, well then, you go girl.

Generally, there's always been a strong push for voting your self interest anyway. Want cheap concrete work and produce regardless of other societal cost? Vote massive immigration by whatever means. Want free health care that you put very little into? Vote for un-means tested Medicare (most are in favor of this one, so look in the mirror). Want to buy gas for cheap? Vote for no environmental regs in states with refineries. It's all good.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:37 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
777 posts, read 923,944 times
Reputation: 3150
Sooo..This contractor guy...is building a $400,00.00 house and he hires ernesto an jose instead of Ernie and Joe and he saves a bundle of money by building a $400,00.00 house for $100,00.00. He saves so much money that in fact he can get a new Porche for the wife AND hire another worker...say a project manager...do you think he's going to hire a legal or an illegal...I'd say he'd go with the illegal because this is someone he'd have to pay every Friday but he needs to keep his wages low to keep over-all costs low cause he has payments to make on Mommas porche...Lets call him juan...juan actually need only be able to read blue-prints, work with the sub-contractors, order supplies and hire contract laborers but he is fluent in spanish already and prolly has a network of sub-contractors in place that all speak spanish. Plus he has his core employees of ernesto an jose who will work in any conditions. juan gives his supply orders to juanita, the office/file clerk, (that the contractor guy requires to be bi-lingual) who gives them to the contractor guy for pre-approval. He has also hired josie (who is also required to be bi-lingual) to handle pay-roll for the office staff and the labor force. She could also dabble in HR by verifying hiring documents. josie and juanita make about $8.00 and hour and ernie and jose make about $9.00-$10.00 an hour. juanita is married to ernesto and josie is married to jose but they don't talk about that... much. juan makes $12.00 an hour. None of these people get health insurance, no retirement or pay raises...if they make a fuss the contractor guy puts them off for a year or 2, gives them a really cool ethnic Christmas party then throw them maybe .50 cents an hour. Look at those jobs..thats 5 permanent full time jobs that could be held by legal citizens but because of the contractors greed he only hires illegals. Thats permanent jobs... and thats not mentioning all the subs that also work on his projects that are also illegal. When questioned about only hiring illegals he says that that is the cost of doing business...well, actually it's not..but you Mr contractor guy have made it the cost of doing business cause you know...Momma had to have that porche and you have to live in a 5000sqft house and your daughter is too good to work while attending her ivy league or local party college. And those illegals..are they spending their low wages here in the U.S.? No, they send a healthy amount back to Mexico..live in the better part of the Barrio so the rent is still reasonably low and since juanita had her baby with no health insurance then the baby was paid for using emergency Medicaid and now recieves WIC.
And, you think White collar workers are safe?? Think again..as I speak your x-rays are being read by a Radiologist in India.
Also let me point out something here and now..they are NOT immigrants...they are aliens..let me put it this way...
You have a healthy cell (the U.S.) with core bodies and such (citizens) in this cell there are only certain alien bodies allowed in the cell, those bringing nourishment, oxygen, and orders for change and growth. (immigrants) they are allowed in for a specific purpose and then they are shown the door out or they are assimmilated into the cell (natralization) but there are mechanisms in place that check these bodies very carefully...before they even enter the cell...if a foreign body does happen to get in it is immeditely surrounded and encapsulated and expelled by the cell (illegal aliens) If the cell is unindated by these aliens and they take over the cell that is called cancer. That is the state of affairs in the U.S. today.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,238,764 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
I would call my shower water "water" but I wouldn't call urine "water".

By the way, salt water and fresh water are not interchangeable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I like the not so subtle analogizing of illegal immigrants to urine. Classy.

But yeah, illegal immigrants are immigrants. Just like illegal gambling operations are gambling operations.
I dont think Cindy Jole was calling illegal aliens urine.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
777 posts, read 923,944 times
Reputation: 3150
What do you think all those illegal aliens are going to do if they are granted amnesty...just go along with the state of affairs as they were and maintain the status quo?? No, they are going to demand AMERICAN wages and AMERICAN benefits because they are citizens now. Meanwhile they are already at work bringing the rest of their family over here illegally and it starts all over again...that is what happened with the amnesty of the 80's.
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