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Old 06-22-2011, 08:57 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
Sooo..This contractor guy...is building a $400,00.00 house and he hires ernesto an jose instead of Ernie and Joe and he saves a bundle of money by building a $400,00.00 house for $100,00.00. He saves so much money that in fact he can get a new Porche for the wife AND hire another worker...say a project manager...do you think he's going to hire a legal or an illegal...I'd say he'd go with the illegal because this is someone he'd have to pay every Friday but he needs to keep his wages low to keep over-all costs low cause he has payments to make on Mommas porche
Great so far (except for the missing zeroes - English not your first language? I mean that question honestly). So far, in your hypothetical, the contractor has purchased a Porsche, which has helped the auto industry, from the salesperson down to the factory floor. All because the government let him work with whoever he wanted to work with. This is a wonderful thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
...Lets call him juan...juan actually need only be able to read blue-prints, work with the sub-contractors, order supplies and hire contract laborers but he is fluent in spanish already and prolly has a network of sub-contractors in place that all speak spanish. Plus he has his core employees of ernesto an jose who will work in any conditions. juan gives his supply orders to juanita, the office/file clerk, (that the contractor guy requires to be bi-lingual) who gives them to the contractor guy for pre-approval. He has also hired josie (who is also required to be bi-lingual) to handle pay-roll for the office staff and the labor force. She could also dabble in HR by verifying hiring documents. josie and juanita make about $8.00 and hour and ernie and jose make about $9.00-$10.00 an hour. juanita is married to ernesto and josie is married to jose but they don't talk about that... much. juan makes $12.00 an hour. None of these people get health insurance, no retirement or pay raises...if they make a fuss the contractor guy puts them off for a year or 2, gives them a really cool ethnic Christmas party then throw them maybe .50 cents an hour. Look at those jobs..thats 5 permanent full time jobs that could be held by legal citizens but because of the contractors greed he only hires illegals.
With the exception of the leverage that the contractor has over his employees because he can report their illegal status, this all sounds great to me. Everyone is working with whomever they would like to work with and the government is not getting in their way. Allocative efficiency in action.

It's ridiculous to just call this "greed" on the part of the contractor. He looked around for the best deal for himself and made an exchange of labor and money with the people making the best offer. THAT IS HOW BUSINESS IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. I mean, if you hate free markets that much, just say so. I doubt you're rambling about the contractor's "greed" if he's paying the same exact amount of money to American citizens, because you like them more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
Thats permanent jobs... and thats not mentioning all the subs that also work on his projects that are also illegal. When questioned about only hiring illegals he says that that is the cost of doing business...well, actually it's not..but you Mr contractor guy have made it the cost of doing business cause you know...Momma had to have that porche and you have to live in a 5000sqft house and your daughter is too good to work while attending her ivy league or local party college.
Those are all things that I'm sure you agree people should be allowed to do with the money they earn. They're also things that help the economy. Increasing demand for cars and houses and education increases demand in the market for people who make cars and build houses and provide education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
And those illegals..are they spending their low wages here in the U.S.? No, they send a healthy amount back to Mexico..live in the better part of the Barrio so the rent is still reasonably low and since juanita had her baby with no health insurance then the baby was paid for using emergency Medicaid and now recieves WIC.
And like the American dude, they should be allowed to do with their money what they'd like. They worked for it, they offered competitive wages and labor, and they are now reaping the rewards. Legal citizens are allowed to send money out of the country or, say, book a hugely expensive vacation in a foreign country. I see no reason to prevent anyone from doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
And, you think White collar workers are safe?? Think again..as I speak your x-rays are being read by a Radiologist in India.
Despite being a white collar worker, I believe I made a joke about this earlier in the thread. This is one of the wonders of globalization - a guy running a company here can choose to buy his labor from wherever he'd like. Just like if he wanted to he could have all of his workers be located in Wyoming even though his company is headquartered in New York.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
Also let me point out something here and now..they are NOT immigrants...they are aliens
Like I've said, this is just you not understanding the words involved. As a bonus, you're also not understanding the term aliens. My dad is both an immigrant and an alien, because alienage is entirely about where you are from. By most definitions, anyone who is not a native to America would be an alien by our standards. These are not mutually exclusive terms. They are damn near the same word, in this context. I know alien sounds way scarier, but the Supreme Court uses the term "alienage" when referring to people of foreign descent, for example.

 
Old 06-22-2011, 08:58 PM
 
82 posts, read 73,561 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
This is the "typical argument" because it's true. Illegal immigrants also pay gas taxes, property taxes (usually indirectly via rent), any corporate taxes that corporations pass onto consumers, tobacco taxes, alcohol taxes, tolls on toll roads they use, higher prices on certain imported goods due to tariffs, and virtually every other tax that we as citizens pay.
Well heck, you'd almost think that people were overtaxed in this country.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:13 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRavenSpeaks View Post
Well heck, you'd almost think that people were overtaxed in this country.
Wow, you sure did manage to not even slightly respond at all.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
Here's a good summary that also offers citations to the original numbers:

https://roygermano.wordpress.com/201...nts-pay-taxes/

The cliff notes are that according to the Social Security Administration, about 75% of illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes and the withholding on their federal and, if applicable, state income taxes. The SSA gets this estimate from the amount of money they collect that gets submitted from bogus SSNs. However, illegal immigrants virtually never file their income tax returns to get their tax refunds, and they will all-but-certainly never collect on Social Security or Medicare benefits, benefits they're paying into but will never receive. Thus, they end up paying more than citizens, due to never collecting their refunds, and they receive fewer benefits.
Wrong! Since illegal aliens work for slave wages and usually have large families they have no tax liability at the end of the year and claim many dependants during the year so very little in the way of income taxes gets deducted in the first place. The only exception would be SS tax and they wouldn't be eligible (if at all because of their status) to collect until retirement age anyway.

Since our government doesn't even know who is working illegally and who isn't how would they know what taxes illegals pay in? They don't even know how many are here. Many illegals get paid under the table and pay no income taxes at all. They don't all work under bogus SS numbers either. Many of them use stolen SS numbers to work.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:22 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,669 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanygirl View Post
Sooo..This contractor guy...is building a $400,00.00 house and he hires ernesto an jose instead of Ernie and Joe and he saves a bundle of money by building a $400,00.00 house for $100,00.00. He saves so much money that in fact he can get a new Porche for the wife AND hire another worker...say a project manager...do you think he's going to hire a legal or an illegal...I'd say he'd go with the illegal because this is someone he'd have to pay every Friday but he needs to keep his wages low to keep over-all costs low cause he has payments to make on Mommas porche...Lets call him juan...juan actually need only be able to read blue-prints, work with the sub-contractors, order supplies and hire contract laborers but he is fluent in spanish already and prolly has a network of sub-contractors in place that all speak spanish. Plus he has his core employees of ernesto an jose who will work in any conditions. juan gives his supply orders to juanita, the office/file clerk, (that the contractor guy requires to be bi-lingual) who gives them to the contractor guy for pre-approval. He has also hired josie (who is also required to be bi-lingual) to handle pay-roll for the office staff and the labor force. She could also dabble in HR by verifying hiring documents. josie and juanita make about $8.00 and hour and ernie and jose make about $9.00-$10.00 an hour. juanita is married to ernesto and josie is married to jose but they don't talk about that... much. juan makes $12.00 an hour. None of these people get health insurance, no retirement or pay raises...if they make a fuss the contractor guy puts them off for a year or 2, gives them a really cool ethnic Christmas party then throw them maybe .50 cents an hour. Look at those jobs..thats 5 permanent full time jobs that could be held by legal citizens but because of the contractors greed he only hires illegals. Thats permanent jobs... and thats not mentioning all the subs that also work on his projects that are also illegal. When questioned about only hiring illegals he says that that is the cost of doing business...well, actually it's not..but you Mr contractor guy have made it the cost of doing business cause you know...Momma had to have that porche and you have to live in a 5000sqft house and your daughter is too good to work while attending her ivy league or local party college. And those illegals..are they spending their low wages here in the U.S.? No, they send a healthy amount back to Mexico..live in the better part of the Barrio so the rent is still reasonably low and since juanita had her baby with no health insurance then the baby was paid for using emergency Medicaid and now recieves WIC.
And, you think White collar workers are safe?? Think again..as I speak your x-rays are being read by a Radiologist in India.
Also let me point out something here and now..they are NOT immigrants...they are aliens..let me put it this way...
You have a healthy cell (the U.S.) with core bodies and such (citizens) in this cell there are only certain alien bodies allowed in the cell, those bringing nourishment, oxygen, and orders for change and growth. (immigrants) they are allowed in for a specific purpose and then they are shown the door out or they are assimmilated into the cell (natralization) but there are mechanisms in place that check these bodies very carefully...before they even enter the cell...if a foreign body does happen to get in it is immeditely surrounded and encapsulated and expelled by the cell (illegal aliens) If the cell is unindated by these aliens and they take over the cell that is called cancer. That is the state of affairs in the U.S. today.
Cool story bro.


You realize that when a contractor places a bid on a project that there are other people bidding on the project as well right? And do you also realize that in down economies such as this one that competition to win jobs goes way up and these people all have access to the supposed cheap illegal labor which they can factor into their bid to make it more competitive and thus more likely to win right? Do you c why this blows apart your fantastically elaborate and long winded hypothetical from nearly the beginning?
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:25 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Great so far (except for the missing zeroes - English not your first language? I mean that question honestly). So far, in your hypothetical, the contractor has purchased a Porsche, which has helped the auto industry, from the salesperson down to the factory floor. All because the government let him work with whoever he wanted to work with. This is a wonderful thing.



With the exception of the leverage that the contractor has over his employees because he can report their illegal status, this all sounds great to me. Everyone is working with whomever they would like to work with and the government is not getting in their way. Allocative efficiency in action.

It's ridiculous to just call this "greed" on the part of the contractor. He looked around for the best deal for himself and made an exchange of labor and money with the people making the best offer. THAT IS HOW BUSINESS IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. I mean, if you hate free markets that much, just say so. I doubt you're rambling about the contractor's "greed" if he's paying the same exact amount of money to American citizens, because you like them more.



Those are all things that I'm sure you agree people should be allowed to do with the money they earn. They're also things that help the economy. Increasing demand for cars and houses and education increases demand in the market for people who make cars and build houses and provide education.



And like the American dude, they should be allowed to do with their money what they'd like. They worked for it, they offered competitive wages and labor, and they are now reaping the rewards. Legal citizens are allowed to send money out of the country or, say, book a hugely expensive vacation in a foreign country. I see no reason to prevent anyone from doing so.



Despite being a white collar worker, I believe I made a joke about this earlier in the thread. This is one of the wonders of globalization - a guy running a company here can choose to buy his labor from wherever he'd like. Just like if he wanted to he could have all of his workers be located in Wyoming even though his company is headquartered in New York.



Like I've said, this is just you not understanding the words involved. As a bonus, you're also not understanding the term aliens. My dad is both an immigrant and an alien, because alienage is entirely about where you are from. By most definitions, anyone who is not a native to America would be an alien by our standards. These are not mutually exclusive terms. They are damn near the same word, in this context. I know alien sounds way scarier, but the Supreme Court uses the term "alienage" when referring to people of foreign descent, for example.
No, that isn't the way that business is supposed to work! Businesses are accountable to our immigration and labor laws. They only have the right to hire LEGAL workers.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:30 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie47 View Post
This is the "typical argument" because it's true. Illegal immigrants also pay gas taxes, property taxes (usually indirectly via rent), any corporate taxes that corporations pass onto consumers, tobacco taxes, alcohol taxes, tolls on toll roads they use, higher prices on certain imported goods due to tariffs, and virtually every other tax that we as citizens pay.
Here is what you aren't getting. When an illegal takes a job he isn't rightfully entitled to an American is out of a job. If the American were working that same job he/she would also in return be paying those same gas taxes, property taxes and all the other taxes you mentioned. However, he won't be because an illegal took his job.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:34 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, that isn't the way that business is supposed to work! Businesses are accountable to our immigration and labor laws. They only have the right to hire LEGAL workers.
lol?

Yeah, like I said, you're basically arguing that it's bad because it's illegal.

I'm saying that A. law enforcement should ignore bull**** laws. Marijuana laws, for example, are a waste of resources to enforce. And B. THESE TRANSACTIONS SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

But great job of handwaving away everything in the post. The ENTIRE point was that it's good for the economy to let people transact as they please in almost every situation. Your point is tangential.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,237,529 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol?

Yeah, like I said, you're basically arguing that it's bad because it's illegal.

I'm saying that A. law enforcement should ignore bull**** laws. Marijuana laws, for example, are a waste of resources to enforce. And B. THESE TRANSACTIONS SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

But great job of handwaving away everything in the post.
Youre right. The laws could use change. Like make it HARDER to immigrate to the USA especialy cause many Americans cant find jobs. And make it real bad for illegal aliens.

The marijuana thing Im leavin alone.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 09:38 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,669 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
See, in the case of agriculture, I would support a guest worker program. The work is seasonal after all. But anybody who supports the notion that it's perfectly okay for an illegal to walk into the Hormel plant in Nebraska and supplant a meatpacker who has worked there for 20 years has rocks in his head.
Why shouldn't the people who are willing to work in the tough conditions of an Agricultural operation harvesting crops for our country not be able to earn citizenship?
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