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Old 06-22-2011, 10:42 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,166,436 times
Reputation: 2130

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Why shouldn't the people who are willing to work in the tough conditions of an Agricultural operation harvesting crops for our country not be able to earn citizenship?
No problem just as long as they are here legally picking those crops.

 
Old 06-22-2011, 10:43 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,880 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Youre right. The laws could use change. Like make it HARDER to immigrate to the USA especialy cause many Americans cant find jobs. And make it real bad for illegal aliens.

The marijuana thing Im leavin alone.
Are you from some kind of place where re-stating your position is the same thing as arguing? If so, I wish it were illegal to emigrate from that place to this country.
 
Old 06-22-2011, 10:49 PM
 
192 posts, read 91,570 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Wrong! Since illegal aliens work for slave wages and usually have large families they have no tax liability at the end of the year and claim many dependants during the year so very little in the way of income taxes gets deducted in the first place. The only exception would be SS tax and they wouldn't be eligible (if at all because of their status) to collect until retirement age anyway.

Since our government doesn't even know who is working illegally and who isn't how would they know what taxes illegals pay in? They don't even know how many are here. Many illegals get paid under the table and pay no income taxes at all. They don't all work under bogus SS numbers either. Many of them use stolen SS numbers to work.
So, now wait a minute. I've provided conclusive evidence that the vast majority of illegal immigrants pay the withholding on their federal and state income taxes. The only way for them to get that money back and thus "have no tax liability at the end of the year and claim many dependants during the year" is to file their returns to get their refunds. The study I cited also indicated that wasn't the case.

Next, I have indicated that the government does know about how many illegal immigrants there are: the number cited on these forums is usually about 11 million. We also know that the government knows how many people pay their withholding and payroll taxes with bogus SSNs. From these two numbers, the government has concluded that about 75% of illegal immigrants pay their federal income and payroll taxes.

Quote:
Many illegals get paid under the table and pay no income taxes at all.
This is true. We know that somewhere around 25% of illegal immigrants are paid under the table or are not working, perhaps being supported by a citizen spouse. I'd like to see these people force to pay taxes like other immigrants.

Also, plenty of citizens are paid under the table, too. Waiters don't always report all their tips, and that kid you paid $10 to mow your lawn probably doesn't file. You can try mowing lawns and getting paid in cash only for a living. If this is such an awesome gig, you should try it.

Quote:
Many of them use stolen SS numbers to work.
This is the only other true thing in your post. By "bogus," I meant not only completely fabricated, but also the SSNs of the dead, which is a common tactic for illegal immigrants.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 12:51 AM
 
8 posts, read 5,248 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Wrong! Since illegal aliens work for slave wages and usually have large families they have no tax liability at the end of the year and claim many dependants during the year so very little in the way of income taxes gets deducted in the first place. The only exception would be SS tax and they wouldn't be eligible (if at all because of their status) to collect until retirement age anyway.
If your argument about the illegals being a net drain on the state's resources were true (and it's NOT, make no mistake) then I hope you know that's an even bigger reason why they should be legalized forthwith.

That is especially when you factor in that it's pretty much a logistical impossibility to somehow remove 11,000,000 people from the USA. It would take like 300 years. I mean you do understand that right? Hell the Obama administration has deported more people than any administration in the past and they're only at about 300,000 a year, if memory serves.

This is the most frustrating part of this issue. Most of these discussions such as those going on in this thread are pure pie in the sky. There's simply no practical way to do anything with these people other than either give them a path to citizenship (or at least some sort of documentation), or just living with the status quo. There are NO other options.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 12:53 AM
 
8 posts, read 5,248 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Witnessing the debate over illegals in this country, I've noticed a pattern among the most ardent pro-illegal supporters. They tend to be lawyers, artists, journalists, ministers, academics, etc. etc. etc.
Did you ever think that what it really means is that most of them are in fact quite a bit smarter than YOU?
 
Old 06-23-2011, 01:26 AM
 
36 posts, read 14,612 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Easy. None of these truly vocal people hold jobs that would be threatened by an illegal immigrant, unlike a factory worker, a construction worker, a day laborer, a housekeeper in a hotel or any number of other blue-collar jobs. Just as importantly, none of those people will face the competitive downward pressure that an illegal will place on wages in blue-collar jobs. After all, if you have a large pool of workers out there chasing a finite number of jobs, then wages get pushed down. It's the law of supply and demand. It's Economics 101.
Unfortunately for this argument economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101 have done numerous studies on this. Numerous data shows that immigrant influx into the labor market causes in the worst case scenario very little downward pressure on employment or wages. The reason is that these workers are also consumers. Increased consumer demand in turn gives business incentive to hire more workers to support expansion of their business.

BTW, the term "ceteris paribus" (meaning all other things being equal) is used a lot in economics, in particular Econ 101. So yes, ceteris paribus your quaint explanation is 100% correct. However it doesnt take into account other factors that empirical data has shown to be enough to offset downward pressure on wages and employment.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 01:54 AM
 
82 posts, read 73,729 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VoltronRoad View Post
Unfortunately for this argument economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101 have done numerous studies on this. Numerous data shows that immigrant influx into the labor market causes in the worst case scenario very little downward pressure on employment or wages.
Thanks for the input, but there are plenty of counter examples. A quick peek at papers by 'economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101' shows a largish amount of work indicating significant wage reduction for high school drop outs, some minorities, in general just the people you would think are affected.

Honestly, it sounds like a non-trivial thing to attempt to prove with any rigor. It wouldn't surprise me if quite a few 'economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101' don't bring a political dog to the fight, so there's even a fair amount of bias in the picture.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 01:57 AM
 
82 posts, read 73,729 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinovirus View Post
Did you ever think that what it really means is that most of them are in fact quite a bit smarter than YOU?
You know, that's certainly possible. It's an excellent point to make.

When I run into one of these smart people, I'll hit them up for an opinion.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 02:36 AM
 
36 posts, read 14,612 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRavenSpeaks View Post
Thanks for the input, but there are plenty of counter examples. A quick peek at papers by 'economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101' shows a largish amount of work indicating significant wage reduction for high school drop outs, some minorities, in general just the people you would think are affected.

Honestly, it sounds like a non-trivial thing to attempt to prove with any rigor. It wouldn't surprise me if quite a few 'economists who have progressed beyond Economics 101' don't bring a political dog to the fight, so there's even a fair amount of bias in the picture.
More like your quick peek at cherry picked studies listed at the CIS. No political agenda involved there at all.
 
Old 06-23-2011, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,240,109 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinovirus View Post
Did you ever think that what it really means is that most of them are in fact quite a bit smarter than YOU?
There book smart, NOT street smart.
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