U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 06-26-2011, 02:50 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,404,019 times
Reputation: 2345

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Why would I need to refute your horrible stereotypes. You should receive infractions or bans without proving these claims. Liquid Reigns already posted a study showing they are a NET Benefit so please quit citing the costs on society for starters.
So the truth -- that most illegals don't have a high school diploma, don't speak English, are largely hispanic and don't contribute much if anything economically and are in fact often a huge drain on local resources -- is simply a stereotype? The truth is only a bannable offense in the mind of someone defending the indefensible. You might want to stop.

Some Americans benefit from illegal aliens. Most of us don't. You still haven't answered my questions about what other labor laws employers should be allowed to break.

 
Old 06-26-2011, 02:53 PM
 
951 posts, read 620,926 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
So the truth -- that most illegals don't have a high school diploma, don't speak English, are largely hispanic and don't contribute much if anything economically and are in fact often a huge drain on local resources -- is simply a stereotype? The truth is only a bannable offense in the mind of someone defending the indefensible. You might want to stop.

Some Americans benefit from illegal aliens. Most of us don't. You still haven't answered my questions about what other labor laws employers should be allowed to break.
If you participate in the American economy you benefit. The bolded was debunked earlier in this thread from a study linked by someone on your side. Now quit talking about them being a drain on society.

Last edited by huddledmasses; 06-26-2011 at 03:12 PM..
 
Old 06-26-2011, 02:56 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,223,889 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
So the truth -- that most illegals don't have a high school diploma, don't speak English, are largely hispanic and don't contribute much if anything economically and are in fact often a huge drain on local resources -- is simply a stereotype? The truth is only a bannable offense in the mind of someone defending the indefensible. You might want to stop.

Some Americans benefit from illegal aliens. Most of us don't. You still haven't answered my questions about what other labor laws employers should be allowed to break.
Of couse the hypocrites in here aren't stereotyping American workers as being less productive than Hispanic illegals, are they? Pot, kettle, black.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:08 PM
 
106 posts, read 217,299 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
No, one doesn't. The H2A certification process can become prohibitively expensive for farmers to use especially in instances where the farmers have to provide housing. Competition within agriculture is high and margins are very thin in most cases therefore certification costs quickly become prohibitive for smaller agricultural firms.
A business that can't operate legally should fail. If they fold they fold. It's always about competition. EVERY line of work has it.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:13 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,012,385 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Of couse the hypocrites in here aren't stereotyping American workers as being less productive than Hispanic illegals, are they? Pot, kettle, black.
I don't think we are (can't speak for everyone, of course).

But there is a difference between saying illegals are more productive generally and saying that in case X, where farmer Dan is hiring illegals, he's clearly making a decision that the illegals being hired are either cheaper or more productive than his other options. That shouldn't be confused with saying that illegals are generally better workers, though I'm open to saying that certain cultures might have work ethics more conducive to certain tasks.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:14 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,404,019 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
? Obviously I was not referring to laws. I mean 10 year olds do not have the capacity to understand a contract.
Some children probably are smart enough to understand a contract. They still can't sign one. The same applies to illegals.

Quote:
And I disagree with the majority of those, too, with the exception of a few laws designed to prevent the exploitation of employees.
Dragging people to a foreign country to pay them very little money to do a job is exploitation. How could it possibly be otherwise?

Quote:
I haven't called anyone here a racist.
That is a standard argument the pro-illegals trot out. That accusation gets bandied about constantly in this forum.

Quote:
All of these statements need data backup. I think that it's been clearly established that you are overstating the burden on social services as well as schools (and....roads? Not sure what you're referring to). Also not sure what urban planning problems you are referring to, but I'm a bit of an urban planning buff, so feel free to discuss it.
How could it be otherwise? You're paying people very little. You're bringing them a foreign country where they don't speak the language. You're letting them bring their kids here and not providing them with medical insurance. What do you think is going to happen when they get sick? Who do you think pays for the education of their children? The interpreters they need?

In the meantime if you have no idea how many people are living in a community how can you possibly plan? If you don't know if a child is going to be in class one day to the next again how can you possibly do any long term planning? The kinds of open borders proposed by the pro-illegal crowd will do nothing but create chaos in our country as we literally do not know who is going to be here at any given moment.

That's very foolish.

Quote:
And of course, no one is arguing against your right to voice your opinion, so I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.
I've been told I should reported in this very forum. The issue is a great taboo in our society despite the fact that most Americans do not favor the pro-illegal stance.

Quote:
The minimum wage is indeed a "moral standard" being imposed, but it's actually based on what I consider to be economically viable concepts regarding employment levels as they correlate to wages. I don't believe that the protectionist standards that support protecting domestic labor supplies are economically defensible.
In other words Americans should sit back and let anyone in the world take their jobs. They should be prepared to learn a foreign langauge (ideally Spanish), pay more in taxes and endure a lowered standard of living. Because there are Hispanic nationals who don't have everything they want. They have economic interests that should be protected. Americans clearly don't.

Yeah.

You stand up for your perceived economic interests and I shall stand up for mine. Okay? Your doing so does not make you more moral than anyone else.

Quote:
lol, creepy? Whatever.

I am not saying they are "very bright." I'm just saying that calling them "morons" is A. obviously just designed to be insulting and B. only fair if you call the people who they are beating out for jobs morons as well.
Of course it's designed to be insulting. Most people don't find it unexpected when someone calls a criminal a nasty name. If we aren't doing enough to educate our own underachievers we need to figure out why. We don't need to import people to do their jobs at lowered wages.

Quote:
Again, I support minimum wage for a variety of reasons, mostly due to the fact that there appears to be a very limited impact on unemployment. I don't have too much of a problem with the government preventing people from being paid less than minimum wage, whether they are legal or not.
Yeah let's lower falling American wages even more. There's good economic policy! An employer cannot just whatever they want. If they want to pay people less they need to move somewhere where that is legal. That is not here.

Quote:
What I do not care to do is draw a distinction between how the government applies its labor standards to domestic workers and anyone else.

In short, if there are two otherwise identically skilled human beings, one an American and one an illegal immigrant in America, and only one can get a given job, I do not care who it is.
Well I do.

Because when the legal citizen cannot get a job I have to pay more in taxes to support him. I have no such obligation to the foreign national. You cannot possibly ask Americans to act as the world's employment agency.

That is not our legal or moral responsibility. I am sorry you feel otherwise.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:26 PM
 
951 posts, read 620,926 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Dragging people to a foreign country to pay them very little money to do a job is exploitation. How could it possibly be otherwise?
Dragging? They are coming here on their own. Quit with the dramatics.

Quote:
Who do you think pays for the education of their children?
Probably them in the form of property taxes.

Quote:
The kinds of open borders proposed by the pro-illegal crowd will do nothing but create chaos in our country as we literally do not know who is going to be here at any given moment.
Read the study that Liquid Reigns posted IN THIS THREAD before making these comments again without providing sources. The study states that
Quote:
fate of the US economy is not riding on the country’s policy toward unauthorized workers. Allowing a few more or a few less unauthorized immigrants into the country would not have dire consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
...a bunch more false rhetoric already discussed in the study Liquid Reigns provided.
I highly suggest reading the study someone from your side posted IN THIS THREAD and the parts of it I've quoted before making these stereotypical statements that just weaken your credibility.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:32 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,012,385 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Some children probably are smart enough to understand a contract. They still can't sign one. The same applies to illegals.
Of course, and I would have no trouble with a system through which an underage prodigy could establish his or her ability to say, sign a lease.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Dragging people to a foreign country to pay them very little money to do a job is exploitation. How could it possibly be otherwise?
When they are not being dragged there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
How could it be otherwise? You're paying people very little. You're bringing them a foreign country where they don't speak the language. You're letting them bring their kids here and not providing them with medical insurance. What do you think is going to happen when they get sick? Who do you think pays for the education of their children? The interpreters they need?

In the meantime if you have no idea how many people are living in a community how can you possibly plan? If you don't know if a child is going to be in class one day to the next again how can you possibly do any long term planning? The kinds of open borders proposed by the pro-illegal crowd will do nothing but create chaos in our country as we literally do not know who is going to be here at any given moment.

That's very foolish.
I disagree with the last part of this, because there is a difference between a chaotic open border system where no one can keep track of those coming in and a system where almost anyone can enter, but to do so you must go through a relatively simple process that notifies authorities of your presence and so forth.

Re: the first part of this, these aren't really "urban planning" problems in the specific sense, which is what I was asking about. Who is paying for their education? Well, it depends, but anyone paying property taxes and income taxes of any kind is at least contributing.

I agree they should be able to be insured? I assume you don't actually want that, but obviously I believe that insurance companies should be able to make offers to anyone they please within reason (meaning, anyone who can understand the contract reasonably well).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
I've been told I should reported in this very forum. The issue is a great taboo in our society despite the fact that most Americans do not favor the pro-illegal stance.
Can you find one instance of someone saying you should not have the right to voice your opinion, seriously? Not like, reporting you to a mod (lol), I mean like actually challenging your right to free speech on this issue. If someone has done that, I'll go ahead and say in advance that they are an idiot/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
In other words Americans should sit back and let anyone in the world take their jobs. They should be prepared to learn a foreign langauge (ideally Spanish), pay more in taxes and endure a lowered standard of living. Because there are Hispanic nationals who don't have everything they want. They have economic interests that should be protected. Americans clearly don't.

Yeah.
Totally agree with the essence of your first sarcastic sentences. Yes, anyone who wants to work here should be able to, and any employer should be free to accept.

No, they will not be paying higher taxes or enduring a lower standard of living (do you seriously have to trot out these things you KNOW we "disagree" on? At the most you know I will say I don't think that is the case).

Americans DO have economic interests, and I think the government should even step in to protect them at times. And if they wanted to travel to China and do some business, I'd prefer that China erect as few barriers to that as is possible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
If we aren't doing enough to educate our own underachievers we need to figure out why. We don't need to import people to do their jobs at lowered wages.
Is this seriously? If you think our low wage workers are lacking education, that's just silly. Here's some basics for them: go buy an economics textbook, read the first three chapters, and then go offer an employer to do the same job someone else is doing for a little less and see what happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Yeah let's lower falling American wages even more. There's good economic policy! An employer cannot just whatever they want. If they want to pay people less they need to move somewhere where that is legal. That is not here.
"Let's lower falling American wages"? "We" don't control wages, market forces control wages. Government forces can mess with that, but only to an extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Well I do.

Because when the legal citizen cannot get a job I have to pay more in taxes to support him. I have no such obligation to the foreign national. You cannot possibly ask Americans to act as the world's employment agency.

That is not our legal or moral responsibility. I am sorry you feel otherwise.
I do not. I am sorry that you feel that protectionism with regards to labor is an effective way to protect domestic interests.

I'm sure you support tariffs on foreign goods and all sorts of other anti-free market nonsense that has long since been shown to be harmful to economies.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 03:46 PM
 
35 posts, read 18,732 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
If an employer says he "needs" to employ a ten year old is that okay as well? What if he needs to avoid paying overtime? Needs to avoid paying payroll taxes, funding an employee's pension, providing safety equipment? What if he says he wants to employ people for less than minimum wage or ask them operate dangerous equipment for days at time without a break?

What then? Why do our labor laws just get waved away as if they are of no consequence? This is the perfect illustration of part of the problem with the idiot illegal lobby. Once you've argued against rational immigration laws it is only a small step towards arguing against any rational laws.

I think I'll stick to civilization instead.
ten year olds can't consent to labor agreements. Adults can. People complain a lot about bad analogies around here but this one is actually bad because you're not acknowledging the consent issue.

Same for your other strawmen about polluting rivers and poisioning food. Both of those examples include one party doing something without the others' consent. Hiring an adult doesn't.

Nice try though.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 05:58 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,404,019 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
If you participate in the American economy you benefit. The bolded was debunked earlier in this thread from a study linked by someone on your side. Now quit talking about them being a drain on society.
Any benefits are offset by costs imposed. It's that simple. Our own low skilled workers are largely a drain on the economy. Why should Hispanic nationals who also have poor educations somehow be magically exempt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Of couse the hypocrites in here aren't stereotyping American workers as being less productive than Hispanic illegals, are they? Pot, kettle, black.
Stereotypes are fine as long as they are about Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Dragging? They are coming here on their own. Quit with the dramatics.
Your side first. We keep hearing how illegals have no choice but to come here instead of fixing up their own countries.

Quote:
Probably them in the form of property taxes.
Nonsense. The average cost to educate a child is about 6k a year. Do you really think the average illegal is paying that much in taxes?

Quote:
Read the study that Liquid Reigns posted IN THIS THREAD before making these comments again without providing sources. The study states that
Depends on your definition of dire consequences. Illegals benefit some people. They don't benefit most and they actively hurt our own low skilled natives.

Quote:
I highly suggest reading the study someone from your side posted IN THIS THREAD and the parts of it I've quoted before making these stereotypical statements that just weaken your credibility.
Facts are not stereotypes. One study does not prove much of anything let alone refute common sense.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top