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Old 06-26-2011, 06:41 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,408,469 times
Reputation: 2345

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
There is plenty of garbage in your post, but I'm just quoting this to emphasize how little you understand about economics.

Every single response of yours is a two part failure.

1. Make factually inaccurate statement (market forces do not control wages, otherwise all these CEOs would be punished, right?!?!)

2. Assert your conclusion as if it is a fact (the government has no right to allow for unfettered immigration).

Do you want to actually discuss this or no? Constantly - I mean CONSTANTLY - re-asserting your favored conclusion is not actually debating anything.
When you can't even admit that there is no such thing as a free market -- that even Adam Smith himself favored controls -- I am not the problem. When you think that someone who earns ten bucks an hour is going to pay 12k a year to bear the full cost of educating his kids I really don't know what to tell you.

 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:44 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 59,187,281 times
Reputation: 22182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I don't think we are (can't speak for everyone, of course).

But there is a difference between saying illegals are more productive generally and saying that in case X, where farmer Dan is hiring illegals, he's clearly making a decision that the illegals being hired are either cheaper or more productive than his other options. That shouldn't be confused with saying that illegals are generally better workers, though I'm open to saying that certain cultures might have work ethics more conducive to certain tasks.
Sure - you can tell an illegal to go plow under a field and hand him a shovel and he may go do it -- although a very very low percentage of illegals do any kind of farm work. The illegal that does do farm work might happily take that shovel and $5 an hour or less because the government will provide him and his girlfriend or wife and all their children Medicaid - he won't have even a copay for the health care costs of his family and they will receive food stamps, WIC, free meals at the school and much much more.

An American would ask for the keys to the tractor and at least minimum wage to plow under the field. He might even expect some job benefits like health care.

Obviously the $5 an hour illegal is more productive to his employer who can buy shovels instead of tractors, can import as many illegals as he pleases and the real costs of these illegals and their offspring is carried by the taxpayer. The guy hiring the Americans will need to hirer fewer of course but at higher and legal wages but also will need to follow OSHA laws, pay into social security, workman's comp and probably health insurance as well.

It's not that Americans won't work those hard work jobs for dirt pay out of laziness but because it costs plenty to live in this country if you don't live off the government.

But the farm worker is of course a very tiny portion of the illegals. Fewer than 1 million jobs are in the agricultural field and they are on the decline.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:45 PM
 
951 posts, read 622,172 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
It does not claim that they are a net positive, re-read the paragraph. Better yet read the entire report, as it shows that illegal aliens are a net drain to GDP by .07% (roughly $10.25 B) It does not take into consideration the local benefits. The property tax paid for schools isn't enough to cover one of their children's costs. Other "benefits, such as police and fire, etc, are also not covered enough by them as they come into an already existing system.
That's the effect they have on wages not the effect on the economy as a whole. Convenient you left out the last part of that too:

Quote:
the total short-run change in US national income from illegal immigration is -0.07 percent of GDP. While the value is negative, indicating illegal immigration on net lowers US national income, it is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:46 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,408,469 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
CIS in this thread!!! You do realize the history of the guy who created that organization right?
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Let's repeal the Declaration of Independence because he wrote it! Do you ever get tired of implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a closet KKK member? It grows wearisome after a while.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:46 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,014,318 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
When you can't even admit that there is no such thing as a free market -- that even Adam Smith himself favored controls -- I am not the problem. When you think that someone who earns ten bucks an hour is going to pay 12k a year to bear the full cost of educating his kids I really don't know what to tell you.
lol, I can't admit that there is no such thing as a free market? Did I ever say anything of the sort? And what are you talking about with the ten bucks an hour/12k a year thing?

I mean, I don't support a market with zero government controls. But more importantly, we can't intelligently discuss economics at all because you do not understand basic economics concepts. It's not something I think less of you for. Just avoid talking about it.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:48 PM
 
951 posts, read 622,172 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Let's repeal the Declaration of Independence because he wrote it! Do you ever get tired of implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a closet KKK member? It grows wearisome after a while.
I don't have to imply. And these facts alone make your study entirely suspect. I mean you are really going to try to say several studies saying essentially the same thing aren't credible but the one you provide that's funded by White Nationalist Groups is legit? Remember earlier when I was talking about your credibility being in question?
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:49 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,728,913 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Isn't it nice when you can refute your opponents claims with their own sources?
Huddlemasses hasn't used my linked report to refute anything. I suggest reading the report again. It contends continuously that they are a net drain to the economy, Hanson says its minimal. The paragraph above as quoted by Huddlemasses specifically says that if we increase border security will the cost exceed what we spend on illegal aliens based on aggregate returns.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 06-26-2011 at 06:59 PM..
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:50 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 59,187,281 times
Reputation: 22182
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
That's the effect they have on wages not the effect on the economy as a whole. Convenient you left out the last part of that too:
The economy is in terrible shape so there is no evidence at all that illegals are benefitting anyone but themselves and their employers who obviously do benefit by having unlimited numbers of cheap servants that end up subsidized by the taxpayers.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,120 posts, read 20,314,092 times
Reputation: 8224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shellsandwater View Post
Isn't it sad that because our Federal Government has NOT \ is Not enforcing our current immigration laws [ already on the books ] that they have pitted American Against American? I have lost friendships because I feel we are a nation of laws...we are humans and humans must have laws in order to live together. I praise the people who choose to come to our country legally. How sad common sense seems to be leaving our country.
Yes the Federal Government ignored the border for ten years, it's only in the last couple years they have doubled enforcement on the border, where I live.
Now if we can just start enforcing the laws against employing illegals we can get somewhere
 
Old 06-26-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,728,913 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Yeah. That study pretty much resolves all the arguments regarding the economy and immigration we've been having. It also says there is nothing concrete about the number being let in yearly. We can and will do just fine letting in more. Not only that we can further increase the net benefit they are providing by LEGALIZING THEM.


All I can think of being argued now is preserving our culture, people's hatred of foreign language, and subtle comments about illegals being inherently violent criminals. Oh, and "They aren't following the law!! What part of the law don't you understand!?"
Your own quoted paragraph above states by reducing his or her fiscal impact, either by charging immigrants an entry fee or taxing the
employers that hire them
, this is to make up the $10.25B they cost the GDP. Remember this is only for the Federal Government costs and does not include State or Local costs, which in turn would also raise taxes/or charge them at those levels.

Nice attempt at spinning the report though.
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