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Old 06-26-2011, 12:34 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,008,409 times
Reputation: 111

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
If a business cannot find decent workers then the business should rethink their business practices. What if Georgia's farmers wanted to employ ten year olds? Would you be okay with that as well? What if they wanted to use dangerous chemicals on the food? Pollute the rivers?
I don't believe 10 year olds have the ability to freely contract in the sense that older people would. I assume you agree.

I don't believe that polluting rivers is proper because those externalities affect non-parties to the contract directly. Illegals finding a job may prevent others from taking that same job, but so does a legal citizen finding a job. That is how all of our businesses work - you search for employees, and then employ those making the best offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
You still haven't explained why we supposedly need to import millions of people here who don't speak English and have very little education. Our own high school drop outs can't find work. Why do you think that Hispanic foreign national high school drop outs be any more successful?
They are successful enough that states have had to pass laws against their employment, so whatever. You assume that I actually care - if they come here and can't find work, that's generally how markets work. It's unfortunate, no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Ultimately much of this debate really is about the desire of greedy employers, low skilled foreign morons and santimonious, short sighted, delusional ninnies. None of those people really deserve to be heard, let alone accommodated by the hard hit American taxpayer.
You sure are heavy on the insults. These "foreign morons" are managing to take jobs away from domestic er....geniuses. What an embarrassing moment for those brilliant American laborers whose jobs are being stolen, right?

Again with the "greedy employers" BS. They just want people to do the work such that they can turn a profit and fulfill demand. If two people walk up to you offernig to do the same job, and one offers less to do it, are you GREEDY for choosing the cheaper option? Obviously not, UNLESS THEY ARE AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT IN WHICH CASE SOMEHOW NORMAL BUSINESS SENSE = GREED!!

 
Old 06-26-2011, 12:37 PM
 
403 posts, read 281,572 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
The existence of greedy employers who want slaves instead of employees still doesn't mean that we need to import millions of people who don't speak English, have very little education and want their dependent children educated at public expense in a foreign language.

You've repeatedly to the contrary over and over again. Your point is still ludicrous. Especially when millions of our own citizens are unemployed. Stomping your metaphorical foot and calling everyone an evil racist does not negate those facts.
In the case of farm labor your characterization of farm owners as greedy slave masters is highly inaccurate. There are some cases of abuse of labor, but those cases are not representative of the whole nor is it a problem that is unique to illegal immigrant farm labor. I have significant experience with Hispanic as well as American migrant labor. I've cut cabbage and picked onions side by side with both types. The reason Hispanic labor is preferred is not because it is significantly cheaper it's because it's significantly better in nearly every aspect. The only detriment is often times there is a language barrier that you have to work around, but even still immigrant labor is FAR superior to qualified American labor. Hispanics work faster, can work longer when necessary, they have way better attitudes, and they rarely have drug problems, and you don't have to worry about them stealing your stuff nearly as much as you do with American migrant labor.

As far as pay is concerned our Hispanic labor was always paid prevailing wages and in the case of jobs that were paid by piecework they made more because of the fact that they were more productive.

I know this is anecdotal and I'm sure most of you will write it off as a one-in-a-million case if you even believe I'm telling the truth, so I don't expect much, but I'm part of a multigenerational farming family and I'm telling you your characterization of the nature of migrant labor is wrong.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 12:37 PM
 
951 posts, read 618,471 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
If a business cannot find decent workers then the business should rethink their business practices. What if Georgia's farmers wanted to employ ten year olds? Would you be okay with that as well? What if they wanted to use dangerous chemicals on the food? Pollute the rivers?
They can find decent workers. You just don't want them here and can't explain why. If these U.S. drop outs jobs were stolen by these farmers in GA they would be there working right now. That isn't the case. Now, if you want to keep making this argument provide sources or explain why you don't want them here.

Quote:
You still haven't explained why we supposedly need to import millions of people here who don't speak English and have very little education. Our own high school drop outs can't find work. Why do you think that Hispanic foreign national high school drop outs be any more successful?
Sure I have, they benefit our economy and obviously there are jobs available. If there weren't they wouldn't be coming here. Do you think Hispanics would be less successful?

Quote:
Ultimately much of this debate really is about the desire of greedy employers, low skilled foreign morons and santimonious, short sighted, delusional ninnies. None of those people really deserve to be heard, let alone accommodated by the hard hit American taxpayer.
That's quite a description of someone who wants to work harder for less. Also wrt to the bolded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hebb's Gospel View Post

The illegal alien has nothing to say about American questions. He is a foreigner, an ILLEGAL alien, who only enjoys the rights of a guest, rights that he always abuses.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 12:44 PM
 
403 posts, read 281,572 times
Reputation: 60
Double post.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 12:57 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,809 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Sure I have, they benefit our economy and obviously there are jobs available. If there weren't they wouldn't be coming here.
From the Migration Policy Institute:
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/Hanson-Dec09.pdf
Quote:
illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 01:01 PM
 
951 posts, read 618,471 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
From the Migration Policy Institute:
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/Hanson-Dec09.pdf
Quote:
illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash.
Wow. That study says:

Quote:
the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash.
So....they agree that there is a net benefit, but it's small. The people here were trying to make me think they were driving our country to economic ruin.

Glad we have settled that Let's just scratch that off of possible excuses for not wanting to allow more immigration from now on ok everyone?

Last edited by huddledmasses; 06-26-2011 at 01:11 PM..
 
Old 06-26-2011, 01:03 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,396,704 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I don't believe 10 year olds have the ability to freely contract in the sense that older people would. I assume you agree.
Neither do illegals according to our laws.

Quote:
I don't believe that polluting rivers is proper because those externalities affect non-parties to the contract directly. Illegals finding a job may prevent others from taking that same job, but so does a legal citizen finding a job. That is how all of our businesses work - you search for employees, and then employ those making the best offer.
No it doesn't. An employer and employee have all kinds of laws they must adhere to including overtime laws and laws that govern illegal activities. You can't sell drugs or become a prostitute either even thought many people would argue those, too, are also victimless crimes.

Illegals affect the rest of us. They increase the use of social services, make urban planning difficult, burden our roads and schools and create all kinds of problems for many Americans. This is not a victimless crime at all. We have the right to make our voices heard without being shouted down as mere racists.

Quote:
They are successful enough that states have had to pass laws against their employment, so whatever. You assume that I actually care - if they come here and can't find work, that's generally how markets work. It's unfortunate, no doubt.
I wouldn't define success as someone who works for less than minimum wage and neither would most Americans. The markets are not free to operate without moral standards.

Quote:
You sure are heavy on the insults. These "foreign morons" are managing to take jobs away from domestic er....geniuses. What an embarrassing moment for those brilliant American laborers whose jobs are being stolen, right?
Seventh grade drop outs who live here, father children they cannot support and do not speak English aren't very bright. Just because an employer wants to employ him for low wages does not make him any mor educated or the employer any less creepy.

Quote:
Again with the "greedy employers" BS. They just want people to do the work such that they can turn a profit and fulfill demand. If two people walk up to you offernig to do the same job, and one offers less to do it, are you GREEDY for choosing the cheaper option? Obviously not, UNLESS THEY ARE AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT IN WHICH CASE SOMEHOW NORMAL BUSINESS SENSE = GREED!!
If you want to employ people for low wages, not hand them any benefits and then demand the taxpayer absorb your labor costs yes you are miserable greedy jerk.

How low should wages go, anyway? Should I be free to refuse to pay minimum wage if someone wants to work for less?

Why is common sense so offensive to you and your fellow illegal advocates?
 
Old 06-26-2011, 01:06 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,396,704 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
In the case of farm labor your characterization of farm owners as greedy slave masters is highly inaccurate. There are some cases of abuse of labor, but those cases are not representative of the whole nor is it a problem that is unique to illegal immigrant farm labor. I have significant experience with Hispanic as well as American migrant labor. I've cut cabbage and picked onions side by side with both types. The reason Hispanic labor is preferred is not because it is significantly cheaper it's because it's significantly better in nearly every aspect. The only detriment is often times there is a language barrier that you have to work around, but even still immigrant labor is FAR superior to qualified American labor. Hispanics work faster, can work longer when necessary, they have way better attitudes, and they rarely have drug problems, and you don't have to worry about them stealing your stuff nearly as much as you do with American migrant labor.

As far as pay is concerned our Hispanic labor was always paid prevailing wages and in the case of jobs that were paid by piecework they made more because of the fact that they were more productive.

I know this is anecdotal and I'm sure most of you will write it off as a one-in-a-million case if you even believe I'm telling the truth, so I don't expect much, but I'm part of a multigenerational farming family and I'm telling you your characterization of the nature of migrant labor is wrong.
So generalizations about an ethnic group are fine . . . just as long as you agree with them?

 
Old 06-26-2011, 01:07 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,809 times
Reputation: 299
Since the argument is solely about "farm labor", in California after a big crack down , the use of H2A visas expanded.
 
Old 06-26-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,956,936 times
Reputation: 6517
I forget where i read it but agriculture fills about 25% of its labor force via illegals. What are the rest of the illegals doing?
Agriculture also has the ability to get work visa's.
They have options that for what ever reason chose not to use.
We keep hearing about the price of produce going up. We heard about how we cant exist without illegal labor. And yet we thrived on much less illegal labor in the past.
We hear about lost profits. This is the only statement that might be based in fact. What I question is how much of the savings gained by illegal labor is passed on to the consumer.
What of the construction industry? How many skilled and semi skilled americans have been displaced by the illegals? I know in drywall quite a few. The same in masonary.
We hear about the cost of a hotel room going up if we have to hire only legal labor. hmmmm How much?
meat packing. Hmmm we have 2 locally and they hire locals. No illegals. They got caught about 5 years ago and have since mended their ways. pretty sure an employee dropped the dime on them. In the mean time they have expanded.
I work in a paper mill. Possibly the largest in the country. 3000 employees.
Every one of us have had to verify I our legal status. Some how we are the most profitable mill the corporation has.
I dont buy into the theory that we cant function without illegal labor. Its an excuse to excuse bad employers and criminal illegals.
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