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Old 06-26-2011, 06:40 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If the social security office actually has the proof that someone is here illegally and using a stolen social security number, then wouldn't it be the government aiding and abetting illegals and allowing identity theft and document fraud?

Are you claiming the government knows exactly where these illegals are and how much money they are illegally making while here in this country? And it would have to know which employers are hiring these illegals. The same government that is supposed to enforce those laws?
LOL?

No they aren't aiding and abbetting. They can't find them even though it's taken out of their pay check. Well at least I doubt their real name or address is on the information they use when getting a job.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:42 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
LOL?

No they aren't aiding and abbetting. They can't find them even though it's taken out of their pay check. Well at least I doubt their real name or address is on the information they use when getting a job.
If they can't find them, how do they know what dollars are being paid in by illegals? If they are using fake names and addresses and fake or stolen social security numbers that don't indicate they are illegal, then where are those figures you provided from?
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:44 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If they can't find them, how do they know what dollars are being paid in by illegals? If they are using fake names and addresses and fake or stolen social security numbers that don't indicate they are illegal, then where are those figures you provided from?
Read the links man. Their methodology is included.
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:01 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Read the links man. Their methodology is included.
If they created so much wealth, then don't you think their own countries would be trying to get them back?

I know for a fact that most illegals are not paying much in taxes. They might pay some sales taxes, but they are not filing income tax returns, if they use stolen social security numbers they're smart enough to declare a lot of exemptions to avoid paying taxes.
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:14 PM
 
36 posts, read 14,582 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestinoZ View Post
I have to agree with the study, many of the people who come from Latin American countries, mainly Mexico, feel that we should speak Spanish here and cater to them. Just look at the school systems in the major cities in Texas, they have to offer a bilingual program to cater to those who don't speak English and as a result it takes some of these students longer to learn the language properly. What ever happened to full immersion?

At my church we have some students from Burma who go to a public school that only has an ESL program, but a majority of their day is spent in a regular classroom. These student have already learned how to speak and read English proficiently for their age. But they wouldn't have reached this point if the spent the whole day with others who only spoke their language

I apologize for my rant, it just makes me upset of how we cater to those from Spanish-speaking countries
Did you read the study? 'cause that isnt what it says.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
You don't think they are assimilating?
A few days ago, I posted studies that explain exactly why they are not assimilating at the same rate as previous legal immigrants, or even at the rate of current legal immigrants. And, why should they? First, they are not here legally. Second, unlike others, they have not been subjected to the “sink or swim” requirement. Given that everything is provided for them in their native language, and the fact that they overwhelmingly reside in ethnic enclaves, common sense dictates their assimilation rate would be considerably lower than others. That doesn’t even require a study. However, some have a vested interest in portraying illegals as being just like any other “immigrants” when nothing could be further from the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
They are a net benefit on our economy. Not a burden.

Yeah you are right, it's like 3-5+ times the wages they make there.
I suppose spending billions annually to incarcerate illegal alien drug dealers, rapists, and murderers is also a net benefit. Who do you think pays for these costs? Certainly not the incarcerated illegals.

Quote:
The highest percentage of convictions for criminal aliens incarcerated in four of these states was for drug-related offenses. Homicide resulted in the most primary offense convictions for SCAAP criminal aliens in the fifth state--New York--in fiscal year 2008. GAO estimates that costs to incarcerate criminal aliens in federal prisons and SCAAP reimbursements to states and localities ranged from about $1.5 billion to $1.6 billion annually from fiscal years 2005 through 2009;
U.S. GAO - Criminal Alien Statistics: Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs

Furthermore, by their own admission, the government simply does not maintain reliable data on the “other” costs taxpayers incur due to illegal immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Yes, we agree they incur costs on state levels. The federal payments they pay in and never get back cover these. A study someone on your side of the argument posted earlier makes it very clear they are a net benefit on our economy and we would further benefit by making them legal. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/Hanson-Dec09.pdf
Quote:
Second, our tax laws make no distinction, either in the tax
payment and reporting obligations of taxpayers or the tax collection
and tax administration obligations of the IRS, between immigrants
who are legally employed in this country, and those who are not
.
SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER AND INDIVIDUAL TAXPAYER IDENTIFICATION NUMBER MISMATCHES AND MISUSE HEARING COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS U

If no distinction is made between legal immigrants and illegal aliens, how on earth do they know what taxes are being paid by illegals?

In addition, many illegals file tax returns and receive refunds. As indicated below, the IRS doesn’t give a damn whether an alien is legal or illegal. You can also visit the Dream Act Portal Forum where illegals brag about the tax refunds, including stimulus checks they and/or their parents received.

Quote:
The residency rules for tax purposes are found in I.R.C. § 7701(b). Although the tax residency rules are based on the immigration laws concerning immigrants and nonimmigrants, the rules define residency for tax purposes in a way that is very different from the immigration laws. Under the residency rules of the Code, any alien who is not a RESIDENT ALIEN is a NONRESIDENT ALIEN. An alien will become a RESIDENT ALIEN in one of three ways:
1. By being admitted to the United States as, or changing status to, a Lawful Permanent Resident under the immigration laws (the Green Card Test);
2. By passing the Substantial Presence Test (which is a numerical formula which measures days of presence in the United States); or
3. By making what is called the "First-Year Choice" (a numerical formula under which an alien may pass the Substantial Presence Test one year earlier than under the normal rules). Refer to the discussion of "First-Year Choice" in Chapter 1 of Publication 519.

Under these rules, even an undocumented (illegal) alien under the immigration laws who passes the Substantial Presence Test will be treated for tax purposes as a RESIDENT ALIEN
.
Introduction to Residency Under U.S. Tax Law (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=129431,00.html - broken link)

Quote:
Unauthorized work performed by noncitizens using nonwork SSNs has impacted other Federal agencies as well. For example, a 2001 TIGTA report found that, each year, an average $700 million in potentially erroneous Earned Income Credit (EIC) claims was paid to an average 334,000 individuals using nonwork SSNs. These individuals may erroneously receive the EIC because the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) does not have a process to identify and stop those tax returns before the refunds are issued. In August 1996, the IRS was authorized to deny claims for the EIC by individuals who filed tax returns with nonwork SSNs issued to obtain Federal benefits.
A-03-03-23053 - Alternative Format (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/oig/ADOBEPDF/audittxt/A-03-03-23053.htm - broken link)

Do you actually believe illegal aliens do not take advantage of our inept IRS?

Quote:
The IRS issued an estimated $1.6 billion in potentially fraudulent tax refunds during the 2006 and 2007 filing seasons, far more than the agency initially acknowledged, a government audit reported Thursday.
Audit finds IRS sent $1.6B in bogus tax refunds - USATODAY.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
LOL. The money they don't get back from SS and FICA helps lower (or stops it from climbing faster I suppose) our debt AND covers state costs. In other words, the money they pay in federally exceeds the costs the states incur. I can prove this with other studies. Besides the study Liquid Reigns posted says the same thing as well. Also, they are assimilating as fast or faster than our ancestors according to the article in the OP. I think our relatives turned out just fine.
I am so sick of hearing this lie. Illegals have been receiving benefits from Social Security for years.


Quote:
SSA's practice allows noncitizens to work illegally in the U.S. economy for a number of years, eventually acquire a valid SSN and have these earnings posted to their valid SSNs, and then receive OASDI benefits as a result of those earnings.

As noted earlier, SSA does not consider the work-authorization status of the individual when they earned the wages; it only considers whether the individual can prove he or she paid Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA) taxes as part of this work.
Quote:
Under the current statutory and regulatory framework, the Social Security Act often does not prohibit noncitizens from claiming entitlement to Social Security benefits based on earnings derived from covered employment in the United States, even if the individuals were illegal residents, or legal residents who had engaged in unauthorized employment.

As a result, while SSA is adhering to the Social Security Act in terms of paying benefits to such persons, these statutory requirements are benefiting noncitizens whose work activities are not consistent with U.S. immigration laws. In some specific cases, this practice may also be inconsistent with other provisions, such as certain penalties in section 208 of the Social Security Act and the Identity Theft and Assumption Deterrence Act.

Consequently, noncitizens, whether here legally or illegally, continue to engage in unauthorized employment and earn entitlement to Social Security benefits. If SSA's treatment of noncitizen illegal employment is to change, it will be necessary for current laws to be modified.
Quote:
It should be noted that, although noncitizens may be residing and working illegally in the United States, they are contributing their labor, paying required taxes, and accumulating an earnings record with SSA in the same manner as legal workers. SSA's policy of allowing such workers who obtain legitimate SSNs to recreate their earnings records to receive SSA benefits is drawn from the Agency's mission, history, and understanding of the Social Security Act, rather than from a lack of concern for immigration law
.

Quote:
The first case involved a woman born in Mexico who worked illegally under an invalid SSN for 6 years. She was later enumerated, had the earlier wages reinstated to her earnings record, and started receiving SSA disability benefits. After reviewing SSA's records, we determined the woman began working in 1992 but was not issued an SSN until August 1997. For 6 years, she used her own name, along with an invalid SSN, for employment purposes. In early 1999, SSA posted her past wages under her valid SSN. The total wages reinstated for the 6 years she worked under an invalid SSN totaled about $83,300. She began collecting disability benefits in August 1999 under her valid SSN. During Calendar Years (CY) 1999 to 2002, this woman collected approximately $26,990 in disability benefits.

The second case involved a man born in Mexico who worked under his father's SSN for 9 years and then had these wages transferred to his newly acquired SSN before collecting retirement benefits. After reviewing SSA's Numident file and earnings records, we determined this individual had worked under his father's SSN from 1971 through 1979. The individual was issued a valid SSN in 1989, and his previous wages were reinstated in 1998. SSA's records related to the reinstatement note that this individual "used his father's SSN for several years…father…signed a statement to advise that it was ok for the earnings to transferred [sic] over to his son.…" In February 1999, this individual began collecting retirement benefits under his valid SSN. During CYs 1999 to 2002, he collected approximately $11,441 in retirement benefits. See Table 1 for a timeline related to both cases discussed above.
A-03-03-23053 - Alternative Format (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/oig/ADOBEPDF/audittxt/A-03-03-23053.htm - broken link)

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Please link to the report from the SSA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
I'm going to need some actual citations or sources for this actually happening. I mean we have the Social Security estimates and you are trying to refute them with anecdotes about your neighbor.
You have an article from a news source. Again, please provide a link to the SSA report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
LOL?

No they aren't aiding and abbetting. They can't find them even though it's taken out of their pay check. Well at least I doubt their real name or address is on the information they use when getting a job.
Nonsense. In case you don’t know, every W-2 contains the federal tax ID number of the employer, as well as the employer’s address. Since they have the names and locations of the employers, they can easily locate the illegal workers, at work.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:32 PM
 
106 posts, read 215,859 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If they created so much wealth, then don't you think their own countries would be trying to get them back?

I know for a fact that most illegals are not paying much in taxes. They might pay some sales taxes, but they are not filing income tax returns, if they use stolen social security numbers they're smart enough to declare a lot of exemptions to avoid paying taxes.
They are a burden that is why they are encourage to come to the US. I don't anyone is foolish enough to think a Country would let their brightest and most talented leave without a struggle.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD_Harley View Post
They are a burden that is why they are encourage to come to the US. I don't anyone is foolish enough to think a Country would let their brightest and most talented leave without a struggle.
Thank you! Clearly, most illegals are their country’s rejects.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:54 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD_Harley View Post
They are a burden that is why they are encourage to come to the US. I don't anyone is foolish enough to think a Country would let their brightest and most talented leave without a struggle.
Yeah, I wanted to move to France but the U.S. called me up and said since I had a college degree there was no way they were going to allow that to happen. I am there illegally now.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:57 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If they created so much wealth, then don't you think their own countries would be trying to get them back?

I know for a fact that most illegals are not paying much in taxes. They might pay some sales taxes, but they are not filing income tax returns, if they use stolen social security numbers they're smart enough to declare a lot of exemptions to avoid paying taxes.

Your logic for your first point is pretty shoddy, there are any number of reasons why an individual could be a "burden" in one country and a net benefit in another. For example, one country could have a poor education system or keep an individual repressed for any number of reasons so that that individual is not able to develop his/her skills to their full potential. If that individual were to move to another country that enabled that individual to develop his benefit to that society would increase. Do you think all the impoverished masses of North Korea and China would not improve their overall value to society if they were placed in a situation that enabled/allowed them to develop their abilities?

Second, if an illegal has a fake SS number, he is not going to file an income tax return to get a deduction.
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