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Old 06-30-2011, 09:50 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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I'll check in this afternoon as I have to goto work right now.
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Old 06-30-2011, 09:51 AM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,241,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SitNSnooze View Post
Competition makes us better. We didn't outlaw the automobile and those buggy whip makers found new jobs and made our economy even stronger. The American worker is much more resilient and resourceful than you give them credit for.
Of course we didn't outlaw the automobile. Ford paid his workers enough so they can actually afford to buy products.
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Old 06-30-2011, 09:53 AM
 
17 posts, read 7,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
While this is true, there are downsides as technology grows, industries due get left to the waste side. I never diminished the American worker, your claim is unwarranted.
You claimed that the American worker can't compete with outside labor. I, as an American worker who competes with outside labor, take offense to such allegations.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:00 AM
 
17 posts, read 7,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Of course we didn't outlaw the automobile. Ford paid his workers enough so they can actually afford to buy products.
Exactly, they learned new skills and we're all better off they didn't keep making buggy whips. So don't get pissed at lost fruit picking jobs, go build the badass robot that's going to put them out of business someday!
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:02 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Of course we didn't outlaw the automobile. Ford paid his workers enough so they can actually afford to buy products.
Pretty far from the point.

There are lots of ways to get outcompeted. Someone can offer a cheaper product. Someone can offer a better product. Someone can offer it faster, to a wider market, etc.

You don't complain when someone gets outcompeted because the competition offers a better product, but you seem to be concerned about the competition offering a cheaper one. Odd.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
What of the employees you released to hire those 1,000 or so workers (you need to work in the costs of the employee even after he leaves with retirement packages, etc.)? or is your scenario as a Hospital just starting out? Chain-hospitalization? Your claims are unrealistic @1,000 low wage employees in a hospital. As for hospital Execs yea, they make a $1M Not Running a Hospital: Do I get paid too much?

In refuting a specific claim, I said it's patently false that corporations who hire illegals only use the savings to hire more illegals. You then said that the savings wouldn't be substantial. I replied, showing that a few dollars an hour aggregated over a year and a number of employees will result in significant savings, which can be used in any number of ways (more employees, reduced pricing, returned to shareholders, etc) which benefit "American workers." The actual specifics aren't germane - it was illustrative of the bigger point, which is that everyone benefits from cheaper labor.

Finally, I never said that there are no hospital executives that make a million dollars (and, btw, the guy you referenced made a total of $845,000 in salary+bonuses that year), I said that hospital executive salaries don't start in the millions. They employ lots of junior executives who manage departments or sections of the hospital who make high 5-figure or low six figure salaries. You don't come out of b-school and get instantly hired as the CEO of a major corporation.
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Old 06-30-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
In refuting a specific claim, I said it's patently false that corporations who hire illegals only use the savings to hire more illegals. You then said that the savings wouldn't be substantial. I replied, showing that a few dollars an hour aggregated over a year and a number of employees will result in significant savings, which can be used in any number of ways (more employees, reduced pricing, returned to shareholders, etc) which benefit "American workers." The actual specifics aren't germane - it was illustrative of the bigger point, which is that everyone benefits from cheaper labor.

Finally, I never said that there are no hospital executives that make a million dollars (and, btw, the guy you referenced made a total of $845,000 in salary+bonuses that year), I said that hospital executive salaries don't start in the millions. They employ lots of junior executives who manage departments or sections of the hospital who make high 5-figure or low six figure salaries. You don't come out of b-school and get instantly hired as the CEO of a major corporation.
You haven't shown that they don't start at $1M, you've but claimed they don't. Besides you forgot to add in the Life Insurance and Retirement perks to make the $1M as is claimed. So you now change the argument to lower level execs, which make 6 digit salaries to justify your argument.

Again you claim cheap labor benefits everybody without really showing that it does. The arriving labor does contribute to an expansion in overall, in this hypo, State GDP, as low wage workers increase the total amount of output the economy can generate. But the vast majority of this additional wealth goes to lower wage workers themselves, leaving only a small gain in business income. This small income gain to US employers (net of the wage losses to previous workers) results primarily from the modest scale of lower wage workers in the overall workforce.
Now look at it from the stand point of the State or for that matter to the Federal Government, lower payroll taxes are collected. For the employer, depending on the total employee's he has, may see, for 1 employee (using your $1.5 per hour savings), a savings of $3,120 per year. That number increases as the more employees at the lower rate the more the business savings appears to be (you are failing to add in the rising costs of doing business, fuel, insurance, piece-rate wages, etc). The Tax burden is now distributed over the populace. So it really doesn't "benefit" everyone as you claim.

Your claim is in the belief that lower wages will reduce the costs to everyone, just in the food sector alone that is nullified. It is nullified with the simple increase in the cost of fuel.
Quote:
One farmer said that Americans wont notice the too few workers "until the price of lettuce goes up to $3 or $4 a head." However, farmers receive less than 20 percent of the retail price for most fruits and vegetables, so that even sharp increases in farm costs are unlikely to make a noticeable difference in the grocery store.
Farm Labor Shortages - Rural Migration News | Migration Dialogue
Labor: US Fruits and Vegetables - Rural Migration News | Migration Dialogue

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 06-30-2011 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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According to Philip E. Martin, Professor of Immigration and farm labor at the University of California, Davis, consumers who pay $1 for a head of lettuce are giving 19 cents to the farmer and 6 cents to the farm worker. If we doubled the wages of farm workers, the cost of a head of lettuce would increase by 6 cents to $1.06. For labor costs to force lettuce to $5 per head, farmers would have to pay field workers $4.06 per head of lettuce.

The problem American industries have is not that of the cost of labor. The problem is that if one company uses lower wage workers (illegal labor), then other companies have to do the same to compete. For example, in the agri-business if one grower can outdo another by lowering the cost of a head of lettuce by just pennies using lower wage workers (illegal labor), then his profits will increase. Inevitably, all growers must do the same thing to survive.
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
While this is true, there are downsides as technology grows, industries due get left to the waste side. I never diminished the American worker, your claim is unwarranted.
By all means, PVN, allow me to correct my sentence for the 2+2 forums.

While this is true, there are downsides as technology grows, industries do get left by the wayside. I never diminished the American worker, your claim is unwarranted.

And no, I am not one of those anti-government militia types who lives off disability payments, FlyWf.

Yes, Phil, weird typos do happen, the mind can outrun the fingers at times.

Money2burn, "mute", "moot", if all you can do is nit-pick typos, what does that really say about you?
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Old 06-30-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Where's that backhand at, muddledass (Prana). When you come to Sacramento, let me know, I'll allow you the opportunity to attempt it.
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